Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the AndAsset show. We got Austin Williams, we got Don Rufrin, and today we're going to talk about a very exciting topic. Drumroll, please. Infinite banking. We're going to talk about infinite banking. Shocker. A lot of our videos, especially the videos that people watch, are on this concept around infinite banking. Lots of opinions, lots of shots fired on the internet, lots of bad commentary, some good commentary, more bad commentary, though, on the infinite banking concept. And we all have interesting stories as it relates to some of our epiphanies around life insurance. And I would say that all of us have had some of our epiphanies around the concept of infinite banking or the idea of being able to use your money using a life insurance policy, not just for something that happens when you die. And so in this episode, we're going to just talk about that. We have the book Becoming Your Own Banker. We're going to be doing study, you could say, and we're going to look at each part. And so it's going to be a deep dive. That's not what's going to be happening today, but stay tuned that that's going to happen. We're also going to do a deep dive on the and asset where we dive into it. That's not what it's going to be today, but knowing that these are the two books that have influenced us in some capacity, those will be of discussion. So Dom, we're going to hand it over to you on this idea of infinite banking. How did you first hear about it? And what was like... your overview and epiphanies when it came to that concept. Infinite banking concept was shown to me when I was actually selling IULs. And that was my very first time hearing about it. A guy who's essentially a mentor, he handed me this book and he's like, he had no idea of the concept. He's just like, I know that there's this thing called infant banking. This thing can help you sell more insurance. I'm sure. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what it was. He's like, yeah. And so I read it and I was more confused than ever. So after reading it, I put it on the bookshelf and I then went down my entire rabbit hole of whole life versus IUL and what should I should not be selling. And I didn't hear about it really again until I sat down and met with you and we started talking about the and asset and whole life and that concept. Then I ended up just discovering it through hearing it more on the Internet, hearing it with Garrett Gunderson and Kim Butler and just just hearing about it. And I didn't really put much merit into it, to be honest with you, at that point in time. Like it really didn't become a focal point on anything. And I really just cared about how this whole insurance concept worked. It wasn't really until I actually got really deep with Better Wealth that infinite banking became more of a forefront because it was like, all right, we're going to start talking about content. We're going to start educating the masses. And I started watching more just videos on life insurance than this idea of infinite banking came up. And my overall perception on it at the beginning was this is a great concept, to be honest with you. And to this day, I still believe that and Um, my epiphany around it was, I didn't have one because it kind of just naturally Miranda into my ecosystem after I already knew about whole life insurance and, and asset was more of my foundational piece more than anything when it came to this. Dom, how would you explain infinite banking? If someone were to ask you, explain to me in your own words, Dom, what infinite banking is. Yeah. And I think this is where people get very confused about infinite banking because they think. It's a product. They think that infinite banking is whole life insurance. And infinite banking is more of a strategy and a process. And it's a way of thinking, which is why I actually really like infinite banking at its core. I just believe that infinite banking has been miseducated in the masses, especially on social media. Unfortunately, more so than not. And I don't think that the way that Nelson Nash intentionally intended it to be. spoke about has been doing justice in the social media world, the TikTok world, Instagram world, et cetera. Now, do I believe everything that is said in the book and so on and so forth? No, but I do believe that there are really strong foundational pieces to it that I love. And the whole premise is how do you get and take back the banking function for the average person, right? How do you essentially mimic what the banks are doing so that we, the average consumer. can do the same thing that the banks are doing. And that really is a fundamental thing. If somebody asks, what is it? It's well, it's just a strategy and a process to get. back all of the interest that you would have paid to somebody else otherwise. And using CoLife Insurance as the product and a platform to fulfill on the strategy is what Infinite Banking is. Yeah. It's interesting because when I was reviewing the book, Becoming Your Own Banker, because of our book review, I wrote this down that R. Nelson Nash and Dave Ramsey have had similar stories from a standpoint of like they both hit rock bottom using leverage. And it was interesting because Dave Ramsey was like went on one spectrum of like get away from the banks, pay cash. And Nelson Nash was just like, I I we need to take more control of the banking function. And it actually is. Both are saying similar things. Don't overconsume. Don't over leverage. Whether Dave Ramsey saying save up to pay cash and Nelson Nash is saying save up. But instead of paying cash, essentially it's paying cash, but don't disrespect that capital. Respect yourself as a banker. So it's a similar concept, just done differently. I'll go next, and then Austin will leave the best for last. When I was learning this concept, I read the book through the lens of trying to figure out life insurance. I read the book through… I want to mathematically understand how infinite banking works and how to structure policies. And I will tell you, if you read Nelson's book or listen to anything that Nelson says and try to get crazy over analytical, you're wasting a lot of your time and energy. What I should have done is done exactly what you mentioned, is understand that it's a way of thinking. It's a process. It's not. The idea of infinite banking, you can do it with a high-yield savings account, and you would be way better off than most people that pay cash for things because what you're essentially saying is when you pay cash for something, it's not just that money, but you now now what you would have paid to a bank, pay yourself back in that area. And so treat the human behavior of that is a key aspect. It's essentially Dave Ramsey just understanding how banks make money and tying that on. Now, What's interesting is Nelson Nash tries to oversimplify it in his book, but then you take the analytical brains like me, and then you take the other people that aren't analytical and just take his word for it. And then they take his concept and speak very confidently about like this is how it works with life insurance, and you're like, no, you're not paying yourself back with interest. You're not really recapturing interest, especially if you're talking about third-party like using… borrowing against your capital kind of deal. And so you get a little bit of bad math, but the heart of it is a solid concept. And so overall, I read the book, was more confused, but I knew that there was something. I then watched the documentary that Jason Rank made with James Nethery. And that was awesome just because of my learning style. It was just cool to like see real people. And then from the studying some of those, I would, I... found people who were like knew what they were talking about or proceed I perceived that they knew what they were talking about and I would learn from them and I think I learned a lot of like through videos and a lot by shadowing people but the concept of infinite banking was great because it got me into the game but I probably and this is my own fault but it probably I had to relearn so many things because I was looking through the lens of trying to figure out why insurance and i was reading i was even looking at the illustrations and nelson nash he in his illustrations he takes money out and puts it back in which you can't do but he he did that to oversimplify it but it did the exact opposite for me personally because i'm like analyst i analyzing like how does that work and so he for this for i think he's he says many times like relax relax you know, for people like me, because we're... over analytical, but it is important to me that we take truth and Philip, Philip, what am I trying to say? Austin? Philip philosophy, philosophy, truth and philosophy, putting them together. And, and so that, that is my, Caleb, will you, will you share what you mean by you can't take it out and put it back in just because people, when they think about the concept, they're like, Oh, isn't that what the whole point of the idea is like you're borrowing from yourself and then you're paying yourself back interest. You're recapturing all the interest. You are the banker. So the way that it makes it sound is you're putting money into a life insurance policy, you're borrowing it from yourself, and then you're paying yourself back with all the interest. That's not how it works. What you're doing when you have money in a life insurance policy is your money is growing, you're getting all the benefits of life insurance, and then if you want to utilize that capital throughout your life, You can borrow against it. Every life insurance company has a built-in loan feature that you can have. You don't have to apply for another bank. It's built in. Or you could get an outside banker or lender to do that for you. And what you do is you borrow against your collateral. Think of it as like a home equity against your real estate property. So you then are paying interest back to the insurance company or back to the bank while your money... is staying in your contract, getting you all the benefits. And so what then some other people will say is, well, if my interest rate's at 5%, but a banker would charge me 8%, I'm going to pay myself back 8%. This is where some of this stuff gets complicated. It's like, okay, what happens to the 3% extra? Well, practically speaking, you're just paying back the loan faster. And then if you're truly an honest banker, you're then, once you pay off the loan faster, You're taking what you would have paid to finish off that loan at 8% and making sure that it goes into the life insurance and new premium, or you start another life insurance policy, or you save the difference in a high-yield savings account. So what you're doing is you're being an honest banker and saying, I would have paid Chase Bank this, so I'm going to make sure I pay my family the same thing that I would pay the bank, and that's just called human behavior. That's called saving more, and that's the thing. It's like we're, we're. gamifying this whole thing, but like newsflash, save more money. Like when you spend money, especially when you buy cars and things, just make sure that you're saving more through that time. That's it. We're accomplishing the same thing. It's just the becoming your own banker is a lot more sexy than how about you save more money. That's why all of us are talking about our Nelson Nash, not Dave Ramsey, right? Yeah. With that Austin or Tom, do you have any follow-up? I was just going to just overemphasize that the whole point of infinite banking is to move away from the way that most people think in traditional thinking is and think differently. And I think that the movement is a noble movement because we do have an epidemic problem when it comes to finances and money. And I think that anybody that's trying to do better by people by creating a movement to help change mindset, which again, it's a strategy and a process, not a product, does create movement. I think that at the end of the day, like Caleb said, save more money is all mindset. Infinite banking is all mindset. Anytime we can start with the mindset, everything else gets better. I'm going to verbally process something with you. This just hit me as you were talking. Think of like four points. So point number one is typical Americans. They're going into debt for everything. They're like, they're not saving anything. They're going into debt. They're paying interest. Like they are a central slave to the institution. They're never going to get ahead. Point number two is Dave Ramsey saying, hey, we're not going to do that. We're going to save up. We're going to pay cash. You're better off for two reasons. Number one, you're not getting in this consumerism treadmill. And number two, it is way better off than paying high interest debt. So Dave Ramsey, way better than most of America. That's why I'm a fan overall of their message because they're bettering a lot of people. Okay. Scenario number three is infinite banking with a high yield savings account. The difference? is you're saving money. When you buy things, you're taking what you would have paid the credit card companies, you would have paid the institutions, and you're paying yourself back at a higher interest. You are going to be better off than the Dave Ramsey situation, but ultimately, you're just forcing yourself to save more. Scenario number four is doing that with a high life insurance policy that's structured properly. I mean, I'm not the first one to come up with that, but I just want to articulate in my head. Most of America, people following Dave Ramsey, the people that take Dave Ramsey's to the next level by understanding banking and becoming the banker of their life. And then including a life insurance policy on the back end that's properly designed has long term benefits that I believe and I think everyone here would believe that over 20, 30, 40, 50 years, your family, the next generation, your internal cash value will be greater than if you just had a high yield savings account. and did that in your life? Yeah, I think if we're putting things in a box, we could definitely agree that one is not very good. And then when you're looking at the other three, you definitely, the third one becomes super advantageous when you start looking at legacy, next generation, other things like that. When we're looking at the Dave Ramsey and also the high yield savings account, if we're looking at it in a box, I would a hundred percent agree. When you start adding in other things. like where else do I put my money in real estate, investing, other things like that, taxes. I don't think it becomes black and white, personally. I think that it doesn't necessarily, is always the most advantaged thing, especially when you're looking at timeframe situations, the stages of people's life. But I do agree that fundamentally, like what you just said, I 100% agree with. One last thing, and then Austin, we'll give it over to you. We'll get in this with the book review, but one thing that I missed so often in reading the book, Becoming Your Own Banker, was... the emphasis on having a pool of capital. So going back to what you're saying is, finance bros will take a look at this and say, well, your money should be in this thing, your money should be in this thing, your money should be in this thing. And there is something to be said about having control of a pool of capital, which hence that's what banking is. It's a institution that controls money better than individuals. That's why they're banks. It's just you could yeah, you totally can invest in real estate and other things, but there are tradeoffs in that. And what R. Nelson Nash did well is he literally was like, how do banks make money? And then why doesn't families should literally be their own bank? But another way of saying that is we as families need to have pools of capital because there's power when you have control of capital. And most families, business owners, even high net worth. people at the end of the day, they're giving that control of capital to somebody else for a hope of a greater return in most cases. But there is that control feature. And I think that's why Dave Ramsey and Nelson Nash are probably more similar than they think, because what Dave Ramsey would say is cash is king, which is another saying of you have more control. Anytime you use debt, you have more risk, which I disagree with that. But that would be the saying. And I think Nelson wouldn't actually be too far out. he just would say, put that into a dividend paying whole life insurance product. And you're actually like, that's the best place to pool and use capital. Yeah. Amen. Yeah. I think I definitely just want to just emphasize that two, three, and four at the strategy you said, all are options to have pools of liquidity, right? And those are all options to build wealth and you'll build them differently. And it depends on the person, the DNA, the mindset. all of those things that come into play. And we can probably agree if you looked at history, the people that build the most significant wealth are the people that had liquidity. And then when there was an amazing opportunity to take advantage of it versus constantly invested or put money into a place that limited the liquidity control. So my journey to learning about infinite banking. Obviously, it started with you. And it probably feels like I don't know if this feels weird for you yet, Caleb, because obviously you learned about it from other people. But like I'm you know, I would never have learned about it had I not met you, had I not read your book. And, you know, when I when I met you at my friend's wedding so many years ago, that was the first time I don't know if you talked about it to me then. But at some point, I got your book and I read your book and I agreed. And just like I said in the last episode, like I also had been raised to with Dave Ramsey. Like my finance class was the Dave Ramsey curriculum in high school. So like, you know, you know, you know, cash is King debt is bad. Like, you know, term by term, invest the difference. That's what I was brought to grow up with. So it's like, I trusted you. I read your book. I also trusted Dave Ramsey. And so I kind of left me in this conundrum. And actually what I ended up doing with that was at the time when I really decided to move forward. And like when I started my family and we were, you know, really having to build a household economy, um I was a farmer. I was also, I ended up a couple of years later also becoming a youth pastor. And I just wasn't in a place where the money I was making ever felt consistent enough to ever start doing the infinite banking concept. But just kind of like what you said about Nelson Nash and how it's like, you know, you really need to not analyze it like to a T to get the most out of the book and just like kind of see like the big picture is that's kind of what I did with... what I learned about in your book is that I was like, okay, I really can't do infant baking right now. I do. I know I need term for my family. I need, I know I need to protect. So I got a big fat term policy on myself and a big fat term policy on my wife. But I took the concept of controlling capital, um, and almost like in the weird synthesis, Dave Ramsey fashion. And so, and here's what I did. So there was a coach at better wealth at the time who, so his name is Jeremy and he was, he was helping, he was my financial advisor and he was kind of helping me kind of think about, you know, my finances and what we're doing for our family. and I was going to buy a car. And I had all the money that I needed to buy the car. And I could have just paid in cash for the car. Except I read enough of Kayla's book and I talked to Jeremy enough to know that, like, okay, like, you can either take this money and avoid paying interest for the next five years. And then you're done. Or you can keep your money and finances for the next five years and earn money on that block of money for the rest of your life. Right. So that and so like I knew like even though and that's like the kind of central tenet of Nelson Nash's book is like you can you either pay interest to somebody else or you forego the interest you would have earned on those dollars for the rest of your life. So I took that concept instead of buying the car outright. I financed the car and I dumped all the money into a a Roth, right? And so I dumped all this money in there and ultimately it ended up being really, really good for myself and my family. Now, what the funny part of this story is that ultimately the Roth that I dumped it into barely had any sort of appreciable difference on the interest rate between it and what I was financing the car to. And so that's just kind of like the, you know, when it comes to the market is like, sometimes that's what happens. It was like my... whatever my finance rate on the car was, that was essentially what my finance rate on the, or not my finance rate, but the interest rate that I was earning on the money inside that Roth. So ultimately, and that's just kind of like, you know, the, the nature of the game there. Now, what I did benefit from though, the most beneficial thing for me was that I gained, I kept control of that money. So even though I actually didn't earn a really, an appreciable difference on those dollars. When I decided to leave farming and leave being a youth pastor, and I was out in the job market really without any sort of financial flotation device, because I wasn't going to try to go back to being an English teacher because I was really burned out on being an English teacher, is that I still had this money in the Roth that I could use to keep my family alive that I would not have had if I had invested it and bought the car outright. And so even though, once again, I didn't like use the infinite banking. like literally get a life insurance policy with, you know, with, with 20% base, 80% PUA, whatever. And like, you know, do all that. Like I use the strategy and the idea, and that actually ended up being really, really good for my family because that actually ended up being like a financial flotation device while I was looking for, for new work. So like, once again, the strategy is really good, even if you can't like apply it inside, like a strictly infinite banking style approach. the strategy works. And like, I know, cause like personally it worked for us and it worked for our family. Um, and like, just like what Dom said earlier too, and this is exactly, exactly the same way I frame it to people like your whole life policy, that's the product. Infinite banking is the strategy, right? You can have your whole life policy or your, just your permanent insurance policy and you, it can just be that forever. And that might all be all that it ever is. But if you decide to use it in a certain way as a liquid savings tool, That is the infinite banking approach. That's the infinite banking strategy. So ultimately, like, yeah. Austin, quick question real quick, just in regards to your headspace and philosophy. Do you think your headspace and thought process and you didn't even be here today would be the same if the Roth IRA would have tanked 50% and you would have had less from a standpoint of money to uphold your family at the right time? Would we have been okay? If it had not been okay, just, just same headspace. Like, do you think that would have changed your whole paradigm on like that strategy, that concept? If like you said, Hey, this money that I have control of at this point in time is there to uphold my family into this tough time, tough season. Would you think you would still have the same headspace and philosophy today? If you, we would have had a 50% correction at the same time that you were going to move. You know, that's, that is a really good question. Um, obviously Obviously... I think I wouldn't have the same appreciation for the strategy if I literally suffered a 50% loss. And all of a sudden, my $15,000 turned into $7,500. And so obviously, I'd still have $7,500 more than zero. Because the other side of this is that once again, I would have zero. And then the market crash happens. And then I have, you know, an extra, you know, whatever my, my auto payment was, you know, and still actually is on a month to month basis. I'd have, you know, an extra $300 a month, but with a 50% crash, or I have an extra with a 50% crash, I have an extra 7,500 and then I have a $300 a month. So like, you know, I still came out, I still would have come out. I just wouldn't have nearly come out as well if that had happened. Um, I still, once again, I still think it would come out from a liquidity standpoint. You wouldn't have been, you wouldn't have come out from a analytical dollar. I wouldn't have been very happy about it, but at the end of the day, I'd, I'd still, I'd still be liquid. Like you said, like I still would have control, um, which, which is honestly what I wanted. I think the point that I also want to hit home with is regardless of. The strategies that we're talking about, especially when it comes to the infinite banking and the end asset, sometimes having the headspace of long-term is also very important when we're looking at this entire concept, right? And sometimes if we're looking at it in a short term bucket, you know, you, you may not be better off because even when you start a life insurance policy, you don't have as much liquidity than you would have when you started with, right? If I put in 10, 10 grand, I may actually only have 7,000, right? It's actually a 30% hit right off the rift. So it kind of gives you the same headspace of timing-wise, new, moving, family. You have to factor all those things in when we're looking at this from a planning, wealth reservation, where am I at with my entire ecosystem of economics. So I was just curious your headspace with that, knowing it was very unique. Yeah, no, that's a great question. And something too, that like another reason, like reading through and. once again, as a former English teacher, I like doing the idea of doing book reviews because this is like, this is my home turf, right? This is right up my alley, is that Arden Nelson, actually, this book has the same sort of aura as a book that I read while I was a farmer that also gets a lot of flack in farming circles because it kind of ruffles so many people's feathers. That book is something called Holistic Management by Alan Savory. And he advocates a system wide approach, systems, I should say, wide approach. to ecology and managing farms and agriculture. And he says repeatedly that like, ultimately, like you have to think in systems. And if you don't think in systems, everything starts to break down. If you zero in on any one variable and only look at that one, you're going to do that at the degradation and at the expense of all of the other very important variables out there. It's good. It's good business. Yeah. Ultimately, I see a lot of similarities in the two books. And I see like a lot of I think that there's a lot of people who would, you know, really appreciate, you know, and maybe who don't have any sort of a time that they've spent in the farm and in a farm or on agriculture, but that they would appreciate somebody who's looking at something at a holistic level and saying, like, here's the way everything works. Let's try to model that as closely as we can in our own lives as humanly possible. Yeah, I think that's I think that it's funny how similar those two concepts are, because what Nelson would. say is, again, let's not try to over-engineer one little thing. Let's look at a system of policies, what it looks like with the family, and the idea of thinking long range, which I think anyone that takes shots on life insurance in general is not thinking long range. They might think that they're thinking long range, but even this idea of bi-term and invested difference is not necessarily built on multiple generations. That's good for you. Let's say you do it. Let's say you accomplish that. Awesome. Three generations from now, is that the goal? Is that the plan? And how are we making sure that our family lasts a bad generation or a generation that drops the ball? So what I want to go to next, and I'll go first, is your pet peeves about the strategy or the things that maybe rub you the wrong ways because ironically… Nelson was not a salesperson at all. He was not a salesperson at all. And I think a lot of the pet peeves are people that are taking his message and are grifting. Now, I will be the first to say that I just read my YouTube comments the other day. And there's people that call me a shill for whole life. There's people that have called me out as being an infinite banking grifter. And so I'll be the first to say I'm not above. above this. Obviously people are, have their own opinions and just, and they have that opinion. So I have to just acknowledge that. Have we leveraged this concept as a way to bring exposure? Absolutely. But we, we've tried to try to stay integral and not try to oversell something that it's not. And so the two things that I'll, I'll start with, and then I'll go to you, Dom, is thing number one that drives me nuts is when people put in the using their money as this magical way that they're getting rich. I'm going to go on vacation. I'm buying cars. I'm doing X, Y, and Z, and I'm making all this money. And I just don't get the math is not accurate, and it also feels like you're just talking to maybe a person that's maybe a little bit, I don't know, I want to say this the right way, but just like, maybe easily influenced kind of deal because it's like, no, you don't make extra money. Like you're creating a system in place to. Like you're better off doing this system than like going and financing these bad decisions. I'll give them that. But it feels very half-truthish, and it might not be a bad thing to use your life insurance policy to buy cars or do these things. But I would also say, and we can talk about this at another time, infinite banking, like a lot of the examples are used to buy cars, and some people talk about paying off their debt. And I get the whole concept, but I I would just be like, I would love to have a debate or conversation with someone on that, because I think you could make the argument, don't use it to buy cars. Don't use it to pay off your home because these are two, two things that banks will give you loans for that. Wouldn't you rather have liquidity for other opportunities or as a backup strategy that if something happens, you can now tap into your life insurance systems to start paying off this debt. And so going back to like the losing liquidity, like those are the examples. and I have no problem with people doing that. I just have a problem with them talking about it in such a way that you think you're just like this, something magical. So that would be number one. And then number two is we like to say, like, don't be super analytical. Don't be super analytical. Don't be super analytical when it comes to Nelson's book. It's a philosophy. But then the same type of people sometimes will be like, well, no, we need to do a 40-60. That's how Nelson said it. We need to have… The policy, have the PUAs drop off after a couple years because that's what it has in the book. And you're like, listen, just like I'm going to agree with you that I'm not going to get super analytical on his equipment financing illustration because it was the concept. It wasn't to prove the mathematical point. You can't now switch on me and say, well, Nelson would not approve this. It's like there's a world to be said when Nelson wrote this. The policies that he talked about was one of the most efficient policies out there, and as these companies innovate, there may be better ways. I also totally admire and am willing for people to push back on this is the right way to do the policy, but don't tell me it's because Nelson wrote about this in 2000. Tell me today's logic, why a 40-60 or a 50-50 or an 80-20, like a full base. I'm totally good with that, but tell me using logic. Like, don't tell me. Don't be like, well, if Nelson was like, with all due respect, that doesn't move the needle for me. You know what I'm saying? So those are the two things that when it comes to this concept, they're kind of on two opposite ends. But those are the two things that get me when it comes to people using this concept and a lot of times aggressively marketing, especially on the first point that I made. Amazing. I know you said that I could go next, but I want Austin to go so that way he has a space to not get all of his stuff taken away. Yeah, and not wanting to double dip too much. What Caleb said is true. Shiny object syndrome is really frustrating when you come across it. And the word picture that I'll create for you is that if you were to jump into a, let's say you were to do a free fall into a fiery inferno, this is the person that is like maybe it's like It finances all their bad decisions. This is really bad. Like, yeah, you're going to land in the fiery inferno and you're going to perish. If you put a parachute on yourself, will it slow your descent? Yes, you'll still end in the fiery inferno. You'll still burn up. And that's kind of like doing, making bad decisions with an infinite making strategy. Like you'll maybe save a little bit on the financing end of things if you do it correctly, but like you're still making poor decisions. So your system is still going to break down and fail because once again, you are making bad decisions. So shiny logic syndrome, very frustrating. Um, I'd say the other thing, this is getting kind of technical, but whenever anybody mentions, and this is kind of goes along with like, okay, they said it in the book. So it has to be this way when people call in and they ask about, is this it? Is this illustration to show me direct recognition or non-direct recognition? Like as soon as those words, eggs in their mouth, I'm like, oh my gosh, like I know I'm going to hate the next five minutes of this conversation, but like go. So I hated it so much. made a video like I made a video explaining the difference that I don't have to have a conversation anymore because it seems like regardless of what I tell people, like they learn the words and then they want to know what they mean. No matter what comes out of my mouth, it disappoints them. Like I can't say anything that's going to make them happy. They're either going to like direct recognition less, or they're going to like non-direct recognition less. And there's no other way to do it. And then they're just kind of like unhappy. So it's just not, that's just not a fun conversation when admittedly, and like, this is. The point of my video, if you got, if anybody watching this ever watches it, is that it's a wash. You know, it really, you know, depending on which way you want to go. Both will get you there. Both of them could be a good option, but it's really not going to be night and day difference regardless of what decision you make there. And that's the way it is with a lot of different things. For instance, some people call in, they're like, oh, I want a 1090. They're like, nothing in the world would make me happier than a 1090. And it's like, fantastic. Why do you want a 1090? Why is that the only thing that'll make you happy? Because ultimately... And what I tell people is, you know, if you're in a car and you're going from New York City to Los Angeles, you know, does the tire pressure matter in that car for your miles per gallon? Right. Does it matter? And everyone answers, yes, it matters. I'm like, exactly right. It absolutely matters to have a properly pressurized tire versus one that's flat. Does it also matter if you're driving like a Hummer versus a Prius? If you have the windows down, if you have a you have an eight cylinder versus a four cylinder. you know, like how much weight is in the car, you know, like there's so many variables that matter. Just like in a life insurance policy, there's so many variables that also matter. It's not just one thing. When people call in with that, like that one thing that they have to have, it's like, dude, you're kind of missing the big picture of like this policy, regardless of whatever the, the constituent parts of the policy is, the policy is supposed to serve you and is supposed to serve your goals. And if it doesn't do that, it doesn't matter how nice it is. you know, it's, it's going to be worth us. There's just like, you know, if you, if you have a, you're a construction worker and you know, you, you gotta go, you know, on this project up in the mountains and I give you a Ferrari, well, fantastic. You know, you, you're going to love your Ferrari until you have to leave the highway. And then it's worthless because it's a Ferrari and it has a clearance of like this much. So like, you know, once again, like you need to have the right tool for the right job. It's not just like one single part of it. A lot of those, a lot of those talking points come up from salespeople saying, well, well, this company is direct recognition. So that, and so then it's like, Oh, that's a good point. Or, or this company is this many years old, or this company is this ratings and they're all valid. It's like the tire pressure concept. It's like, none of them are, they're a talking point, but then it's like when people elevate it to be the most important thing, it's like, well, it's not, you might, you may not understand it. You'd be like in a nice way. You may not know what you're talking about. Have you ever said that on a call? I might have gotten close before I don't think that this is the right fit for us I don't think we're the right fit for each other I think you should talk to somebody else Who would be more than happy to I have this used car salesman Who will treat you really well He does the used car salesman approach to life insurance policies He'll treat you very well Hey it's Caleb Williams here I'm just interrupting this video quickly To invite you to check out our Ann Nessit Vault you may have been there, we've actually re revamping it. And if you are somebody that wants to learn more about his life insurance rate fit for me, does this and as it makes sense, like does this actually help me be more efficient, we've put together a 10 minute documentary style video, I can test a really, really good job giving the history why the different setups and designs that we use. And then we have an and as it fall that gives like case studies, calculators, handbooks, and so much more. We are here to serve you, whether it's a conversation, whether it's education or the video. So make sure to go check out andasset.com slash vault. Learn more. All right, Dom, we saved the best for last. Let's go. Amazing. So supposedly there's this massive movement right now. It's called the cancel empathy culture or something along those lines. And I wanted to start by saying that is because I have massive empathy for people who say these things, speak this way. communicate this way and what I see. I look back at us and I look back at our videos and conversations we've had behind doors and the things that we've said and what we sold before. And a lot of these things that we've are saying today of like pet peeves are things that we have attributed to said at some point, you know, like the non-direct versus direct recognition, you know, probably five, six years ago used to be a huge. talking point that we said you can only use a non-direct direct transition company and the more that i learn and the more that we learn from really smart people like really smart technical people that have done the research the math how these products were built the more you start to realize something like that actually doesn't hold that much weight or matter that much in the grand scheme of things the only difference between direct and non-decoration is it's easier to understand on non-direct versus direct recognition is a little harder to explain and understand. So from a consumerism standpoint, you know, if we're talking to somebody and they're like, Hey, I want this and you can't explain, it's like, okay, well, we'll get you, we'll get you that too. Like, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. We got both options. We, we are not going to fight the, fight the bull in this, this one. Right. And so I do agree that that sometimes can be frustrating with the lack of education, but I have mad empathy for it. one of the things that I find to be the most That peeve, if we have to use that word to call it, would be when somebody uses the word pay yourself back interest without context. Because I think when you say it with a blanket statement, it sounds way better than it actually is and sounds like it operates in a way that it doesn't. And so for me, I was always the person at the very beginning that heard, and I know a lot of people feel the same way, when I borrow from the insurance company and they give me you know, charge me a percentage to say 6%. Well, when I pay it back, that 6% is going directly back to the policy. And it's like, well, so they're like, so my policy is growing at 5% and I'm also getting an extra 6% of my interest. It's like, that's what I thought. And my mind was like, it was blown. And I was like, this is the greatest thing ever. I need to put as much money as possible. And that's how, that's how people get. And when they first hear about the concept across the board and people go on this infinite banking high where like it consumes their life, where everything. And it's like almost when you're you become a believer, like you're fresh to new, become a believer. And you're just like, I just discovered the greatest thing on the history of the planet of like my relationship with Jesus Christ going to have it. And you just like you want to tell everybody and you're just splatting out stuff that just is not biblical at all. And then you ended up realizing as you become a little bit mature, like I. probably shouldn't have said that. I probably shouldn't communicate that way. That probably turned a lot of people off. And that's what happens in infinite banking is they learn this concept, get really excited, and then they start spewing off all these information that they're really excited about, but sounds extremely scammy when you say it out loud, especially from somebody that is not educated on how to communicate it. So because of that, unfortunately, the name Infinite Banking actually gets scam vibes from a lot of people. So when they hear that, they're like, oh, you're part of that scam thing. So like people naturally turn themselves off, which is very unfortunate because that is not obviously Nelson's mission, his objective. That wasn't what he wanted this to be intended for. And sometimes it becomes that because of things like pay yourself back interest and not communicated on how it actually means. And unfortunately, I use this saying all the time, marketers ruin everything, like truly ruin everything. They take a phrase, they take a concept. And they just abuse it to the limits without context. And they may not even know what it means. They just say it because that's what they were taught. So I also have empathy there. But because of it, it ruins it for everybody else. Yeah. Man, that's so good. Anything else that we should talk about before we land this plane? There's one thing. And I guess more so this is just a thought that I remembered that I didn't share as I was mentioning it. is that like Caleb, you had mentioned that ultimately this isn't just looking at one generation or it's kind of asking yourself, how do I want this thing to work two generations from now? You're looking three generations in the future. Is that Nelson Nash, it's important to realize he was a forester. It was actually kind of an interesting crossover, even with the world that I was involved in being agriculture. is that like when you're a forester and you have like you you know you you're looking at there's a specific like parcel of land that you're looking to kind of conserve, you look a hundred years into the future. And so like he came from an approach and a background where he's thinking not just about next year, but like a hundred years from now, how are people going to use this land? How are people, how is this, how is this parcel of land? How is this forest going to benefit the local community and how will the local community in turn nourish this parcel of land? And like, I think that that is like also kind of a good cyclical way of thinking about life insurance policies is that And also, there's also kind of an estate planning conversation to be had there. So that's outside the purview of this conversation. But like, ultimately, how do we how does this policy not just going to serve you right now, but how is it going to serve your family two generations from now? And even once that policy matures upon your death, how will it continue serving your family in terms of in terms of the disbursement? Like that's a really important thought to have is like, don't just think about now, think about a couple of generations down the road and how you want. you know, your family bank to operate. The other aspect of it is if you think about mutual dividend paying whole life insurance carriers, it's like a co-op. People are coming together, pooling their money to make this thing possible versus you look at the current stock market and it's not necessarily that same kumbaya experience. Now that is not, it's like if it works for you, it works for you. So I'm not saying it doesn't make it good or bad. It doesn't necessarily make it good or bad. It's just from a philosophical standpoint. There's another aspect of it that there will be some people that take a look at this from like the Austrian economics view and just saying Wall Street or banking. is a form of evil because of us going off the gold standard like we're literally devaluing dollars which is a problem and this is one of our best ways to go back to the good old days that's why bitcoin is also one of these things that's taking off is that same type of concept and so but just that is another example austin of thinking more long term and the philosophical concept of like like coming all together, banding together. And, you know, it's... What value at the end of the day does you trade in the market? Well, you're creating capital efficient markets, able to have entrepreneurs do cool things. But at the end of the day, when you short something or do a call option, it's like you're not really providing extra value. So that's another high horse conversation that doesn't need to be talked about. We could have a whole other conversation that I would love to have around that. There we go. We could finally get into some things where we can argue about. There you go. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. So far, we've done a really poor job pushing back on each other. Come on, guys. Come on. It's because everything you asked was opinionated at this point of our personal stories. So you can't really argue someone's personal story. Yeah, it's like, Dom, I disagree with your testimony. So the next episode, we're looking at... R. Nelson Nash, Becoming Your Own Banker. And if you guys want to follow along, get this book. If you don't have this book, get it. Get this book. We have a bookstore on our website, but you can go on Amazon. You can go on theinfinitebanking.org. You can get this book. And we're going to be going through part one. And I'm just excited to hear some of the key takeaways. It's fun because this is a book that I had back in the day. It's actually Nelson Nash signed it himself. And so I'm looking. And I have different color highlighters based on what year I went through this book. And it's fun to know what I originally highlighted, what I starred. And so this has been fun to go through memory lane again. And I'm excited to go through and looking at what's popped out and then going through it a chronological way. And hopefully, if you're someone new to this space and learning, you can learn along with us. If you're someone that's interested in learning more about the infinite banking concept. Just know that we're here to serve you. And there's lots of different resources down below. You can subscribe to this channel. You can talk to us. We have links down below. If you have a policy that you want us to review for you, there will also be a link there. We have this thing called the And Asset Vault, which is our vault of resources of all kinds of things from calculators to books to interviews to a nine-minute documentary that we made around this concept if you want to check that out. And we are here to serve you. And so thank you for tuning in and stay tuned for next episode. And I'm going to give one more quick disclaimer. Caleb mentioned that we're going to do the book review on Infinite Banking, the book. We will. It may not be the next episode, though, but I promise we will do it. It's up to me for the next episode. So we'll see who's got more power, Dom or me. We'll see. We'll see what happens. Austin's face. Austin's going to stay quiet. Austin's got no... I plead the fifth. I plead the fifth. Austin will show up anytime. All right. See you guys.
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