Becoming Your Own Banker Book Review (Part 4 & 5) | Was Nelson Nash Wrong?

All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the fastest growing life insurance podcast in the world. I got Dom, I got Austin. We are in a beautiful series on becoming your own banker by R. Nelson Nash. And today's actually very exciting because we are going to be landing the plane. If you are a follower of Nelson, you know that he uses plane as an example. We're going to be landing the plane today. And instead of us all going through the same sections, This is actually Dom's brilliant idea. He's like, why don't we, you know, slice and dice, not using those exact words, but why don't we each take different portions and be able to whip through it? And then the, you know, if it's not your portion, you can play color commentary, but we're going to be going through section four, which is the equipment financing section, and then section five, which there's a bunch of nuggets there. and we will be landing the plane here. And so there's a, before we get. into your section because you're up next. As we take a step back, big picture wise, what have been some of the thoughts in our head just as we're going through the book? Big picture wise, first, I think I have to start by saying, can we actually say that we're the fastest growing life insurance channel now, now that we're already one episode in? you know when you go from zero to one you're 100 percent once you get past that and it's part of the joke because everyone will say they're the fastest growing um i don't know i don't know i mean make us go to the comments or humble us in the comments i don't know but uh if you are the fastest growing we're just going to speak it into existence it's just going to happen it's so good so good I love it now In regards to the actual book, now that we're landing the plane, like the first time I read this book, I was very confused. Second time I read this book, I was less confused, but really understood life insurance at the time. So it was able to become more at least coherent for me of like what was trying to be shared. Now that I read it for the third time, I think I was able to get even more out of it. And I really just appreciated that the book was even written. And I'm grateful that we took the time to do this and was able to like, okay, foundationally really now understand what Nelson was trying to get out. And I think that from a mental and mindset perspective, the book is awesome. Like I think it really is. And I think that it may have failed, but at least he really tried to get the point across in regards to how life insurance really works and the terminology behind it, the insurance jargon, the illustrations. Um, do I think that it succeeded? No, but I don't necessarily think that it was a complete fail at the end of the day. I think that, um, there's a reason this book is popular because I think he paved the way for something that, um, was generationally not ever talked about. And so, overall I think it was great. Yeah. Why do you think this book had so much success? Because I would say for the perfectionists out there, you, you can. You can have all kinds of opinions. And someone once told me that there's no such thing as a critic statue. The people that you make statues out of are the people that go forward unperfectly, but they put themselves out there. And I would agree that this book is far from perfect, but it's created a movement. And it's almost became more popular now than even 10 years ago when Nelson was alive. Why do you think the book has that popularity? And like, what do you think about? like about the book uh it or why what do you think about it is the reason why it's like i don't even know how to answer ask the question because it's like what what what do you think in it is is made it where it's been successful yeah i think because we're awesome do you want to take this is that why you look itchy go ahead go ahead oh yeah i i thought he was kind of like opening up like to uh yeah go ahead like to both of us so yeah i i guess i'll i'll just jump in and say i think that this Reading this book, and once again, I'm going to compare this to Holistic Management by Alan Savory, is that it challenges some very deep assumptions that we have about something that we care about. And in the same way that Holistic Management kind of spawned its own sort of movement and people who changed the way that they do farming, it made a lot of people really angry. And it has a lot of people who are like very strongly opposed today about the practices. that are kind of outlined in that book in the same way is that like this challenges a lot of our ideas about the way that money works the way that it's financed and it does it does so in a way like you know formatting wise like you mentioned like it maybe kind of it maybe failed like it didn't really make a huge effect on the world for the people who have come across it it has made a really big effect, but it is not something that's in the common vernacular. It's something that, you know, when you read it, it very much feels like it was written in 2000, which is like, like it doesn't, there are some parts of it that like have not aged in the way that like maybe some of the illustrations that were used or whatnot, but like the ideas that are being communicated have been very powerful. Yeah, I sometimes think of myself when I'm reading this, I'm like, what was Nelson thinking? When I like not in a bad way, I was just like, what was he thinking when he wrote this chapter? Because he's like, oh, like, let's it almost is like that this was taught via workshop. Someone put recorded the workshop, put it. And they said early on that this was comes from a work work workshop, essentially, that he walked through that. That does make sense because it doesn't necessarily read, i.e. English teacher like a a book that someone's like sitting down. author first, it very much feels like there's a, he's a sage, tons of wisdom and he's just getting it into a place. And the, I can very much see like, this is like a, you know, going to a 10 hour work workshop and I'm almost using this as like a workbook. So, um, yeah, appreciate that takeaway. Dom, anything you want to say before you start us off with part four? Yeah. I was just going to say that I think because we're in a silo, we are in the insurance space and the financial industry. We feel that it's like very popular, but like when you talk to most people, they still have like never heard of the concept before. So within a bubble, it feels like a lot, but it really isn't. But we have to give credit to where credit is due because it has made a massive impact in our business. Every other financial practice that people do insurance for the most part. And so the reason why, again, I think it just is different. It just challenges different because. most financial advisors, when it comes to insurance, they do do all base estate, high death benefit planning. And then you start getting into a, a different like cash value play where you can utilize your policy. That's different than any financial planning maybe has been in the past, which creates something that's exciting, something that, um, is different and also puts it to the man at the same exact time. So you get something that's different, exciting you know, money is involved of high value growth and you get to stick it to the man at the same time and have more control. I think it creates something significant in this space that is solid. And when you're, when you're the first to something, I mean, right now there's lots of content. I say lots, like in our little world, there's lots of content around this, but you know, 30 years ago, not, not a lot of people are talking about this. And so when you're the first, also when you lead with your faith, when you lead with some of your political views, You can rally people that really... very much believe in that. And it's a testament to there's some really, really solid people in this movement that have made it their life's work, essentially, to continue to carry on the torch. And there's a lot of humility in that because they're saying, hey, I want to carry on the movement, not just make it about myself. And so with that, we slice and dice this up, and you are going first. You get the honors of doing all of part four, Dom. with the equipment financing. And so without further ado, I'll let you share about that, and Austin and I will pipe in when needed. Amazing. Knowing that I had this part, I actually didn't read your guys' parts fully. And so I'm not 100% sure if there's going to be overlap in the things that I say. Maybe they cross correlate. So I just want to give that that pre-frame. Um, but this chapter that I read on equipment financing, I really. appreciated because to me, this is really the power behind the concept. I think that when you really understand the concept, this is how it should be used and utilized, where essentially you're using your life insurance policy to use for your business to essentially create more asset producing activity. And that's why, you know, the whole premise around this is borrowing against my policy to buy equipment and then be able to keep the The principle is the same that Nelson has talked about of always paying it back as it goes back to the very beginning, the grocery store example with the peas, at the retail rate that you would have got charged otherwise from a financial baker institution. And so by doing that, you're able to create a. business bank, as he talks about in here, is the banking is the most powerful function. Even when we're talking about business, right? He's like, there's two businesses in the world, the one that you essentially do to create income, and then your personal banker on finances. And I think that he's very consistent with his language throughout the book, which I also really do appreciate. And so from a high level perspective, when you're starting off with this concept and you're wanting to use this for your business, I do appreciate that he talks about, again, like the capitalization period. and making contributions. And there is maybe a slow upfront process. And he even uses the words, he's like, hey, like you should understand that it does take time to make premium payments to essentially create this capitalization period. And he even uses the vernacular that I really like that comes around using the words premium payments versus contributions. And we really preach that here at the And Acid and Better Wealth is that when you're making a contribution to your policy, it is. money you have access to. And in typical insurance, you use the words premiums because it feels like a cost. And when you use this well and right, you're able to make a contribution, have that grow, have tax deferred growth on it, and be able to borrow against and use it for your business. And I also want to say, I use the word tax deferred specifically because in this, he says, it's all done in a tax-free accumulation basis. So uh I know when we talk about content and we just kind of use that word, lase way around, we do talk about it being like tax for growth, but by technicality, insurance jargon, it is tax deferred. But it doesn't really mean much at the end of the day. And it really comes down to understanding the high level of how this concept really works. So overall, I really like it. The thing that I would have a heavy pushback around when he talks about funding these policies and using it is He really hits home on the make four premium payments and then kind of stopping and then having the idea of the dividend and or the cash value making the contribution for the policy going forth. And, you know, it's it feels very contradictory because he says he knows well that additional merchandise capital will be improved, will be more profitable when you make premium payments to this. Right. So it's like, hey, at the beginning, you should make premium payments because, you know, your business will be more profitable. Right. That's the first thing. It's like make premium payments. It'll be more profitable. But then literally like a paragraph later, he says, hey, after four years, stop making premium payments because it's more profitable. It's like if you took the same advice where it says where you actually should keep making premium payments and you keep doing them for longer, your policy will actually be even more profitable, which will create. more value to be able to borrow against the news, so on and so forth. So I'm not a huge fan of the concept of essentially the way that is designed early on, at least in quote unquote, the infinite banking space of going strictly 40 base, 60 PUA, and then stopping after early on, because I do know that there's better, more efficient ways to create a higher early cash value policy. If the goal truly is financing, knowing that the banking system is your number one priority. So with all being said. that's super high level. And, um, I don't know if you guys have any questions, thoughts, or anything that you guys want to add to it. I do. Um, Caleb, do you have anything you want to add to that? No, you go first. Awesome. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So I have things to add. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So a reason that I've, something that I've been like a little bit confused about this whole time reading the book, which I think that, I think that I, even though he's never said it in the book, I think I understand why he's having to done this way. is that... You know, earlier in the book, there is, you know, he even talks about like the seven pay policies where it's like you pay for seven years, you capitalize them and then they're done. Okay, great. Now he's talking about for like for pay and then you do a premium offset in your five. It's like, okay, that's, you know, as Dom said, you were like, you know, short-ish sort of payment policies. Now, I think the reason why he's having people pay into it and then stop is because if you continue, like, the way that he's kind of framing this building your banking system is that he wants it at some point, like you're, you're capitalizing it. And then you're kind of, you are, you are using the, the interest you you're making payments into it. And you're letting the, the interest on whatever income produced activity you're doing. You, that is what is funding this ongoing and not just you putting dollars out of your own pocket into it because if you were to max fund a policy At any carrier that we use up to the line, there is then no extra room for paid up additions. There's no extra room for you to put all this interest that you're earning from your income producing activities back into the policy. Like if you are in the way he's talking about making, if you're paying yourself back for a car or a logging truck, like what he used the illustration for, then like if you've already max funded for the year, then you can't actually like pay back. your policy for the, for the logging truck. Like it almost requires you to, to fund it, capitalize it, and then be done. And then all of the extra space that you had been funding for paid up additions, just outside of the, the policy is that now, whatever you're using the policy to finance, all of the paid up additions are coming from what would have been going to the banks. Is it so like, that's, I think the reason why he's designing this way, because if you just max funded it for the for the same way app for after year four as from years one through four then there's no actual like the it kind of gets diluted in a way does that make does that make sense what we're saying is if you're already max funding and you're you can't physically put more money in you can't because you're max you're max funding yeah and then the solution would be if that's the case and you want to put more money into life insurance you just start another life insurance policy and what most people are teaching when it comes to the infinite banking concept is they're doing the exact same thing. And just to be clear, I mean, I know that Nelson used the for pay example. And I think, again, he uses this as a way to simplify everything. But in his desire to simplify things, it creates, you know, problems on the back. And I kind of partly think sometimes the Bible is written that way. It's like, you know, God's probably doing a face plant being like, guys, you're way like why are you creating like churches around this thing, like just chill, you know? And I think potentially Nelson, if he was watching this, he'd be like, all right, guys, like this was supposed to be simple and you guys are overcomplicating it. But a lot of people, what they do is they do for pay with PUAs and they drop the PUA. You just pay your base. And then the idea is that, hey, if you want to start another policy, start another policy and do the, and then, because Nelson in his book talks a lot about the cost of getting started. And that's where I think we would just healthily push back and say, okay, like, let's, like, the concept only gets better if you can continue to fund it in the same policy. Starting another policy is not the problem, but let's make sure you're optimizing your current situation. And so I'm totally with you, but I would much rather, Austin, maximize my policy today, open up another policy, then give myself a ton of room, and then maybe I'll use it, maybe not. But there is something to say about giving yourself some room if you want to be like, I want to allow for future for me to fund that. But you just got to know that there's going to be an opportunity. There's a cost to anything that you do. And some people may not be insurable or may not think they're going to be insurable. So it's like, let's load up with the base policy. And it may not be as efficient today, but I'm building myself room, not having to go take another medical test. So there's lots of different strategies that you could approach this. I just find that a lot of people. They literally will be like, well, this is what Nelson said, so this is what I'm doing, but they can't really justify why it's the right thing for the client. Most people have no idea where to start or how to really evaluate whole life insurance. That's why we've built The Vault. It's all of our best life insurance resources and educational tools all in one place, all for free. We have calculators, handbooks, crash course, deep dive videos on numbers. If you want to learn more, click the link in the description or tag comment below to unlock The Vault. All right, back to the video. It seems to me like with his examples, like I'm saying like so many times, it's really frustrating to me. When he is talking about for pays and then talking about taking whatever you're earning and using that and paying it back into your money pool, it requires you to have PUAs on your policy for a longer period of time in order to accept. all those additional contributions. And the way that most of the carriers that we work with are is that they require a minimum amount of paid up additions even. There's one carrier we work with that really has no such requirements. So most carriers that we work with, you have to put in at least some. So if you're planning on using your policy and immediately putting it to work after or four such that you hit the minimum amount. of PUA's, well then, you know, you could keep that PUA writer on for longer. But if you're just planning on this being a you know, emergency fund, you know, this is if you're planning on just wanting to have a lot of liquidity in case an opportunity comes around, that PUA writer might drop off, in which case, then you would have to open a new policy if you wanted to put PUA, like to put paid up additions in. So yeah, just want to throw that out there. A couple of things I'll mention is Dom, you and I both have policies that are past the capitalization phase or capitalization phase. And so What that essentially means is we're seeing the fruits of every time we pay a premium, our policy is like dramatically increasing. And so we can, it's, we're even in a place where it's like, it's, it's like, why would we ever want to stop? And, and it's one thing to look at it in an illustration. It's another thing to be like excited to pay your premiums. And that's one of the things that I, I wish all of our clients felt. I know a lot of our clients do, but sometimes we see that and we're like, oh, like we get this sick feeling like, oh, we have another premium payments. Like, no, like. This is incredible, and especially if you get past the first year or two. So I love the fact that Nelson mentions that. And then I also love the idea that you need to be in two businesses. Everyone needs to be in two businesses. The business that you're in, the way that you make your income, and the way that you finance it. Love that. And then I also like the equipment example because equipment financing, you look at some of the rates, and it's super high. It's not like a mortgage or a... a car. And so it's a great example of real life example, why being, being the bank in this scenario could be very beneficial. So Dom, I'll hand it back to you as if you want to land the plane to part four, but appreciate, appreciate what you shared. Amazing. Yeah. To, to land the plane. Um, I think that what I'll say is mindset conceptually. Fantastic. I love it. Put money into a life insurance policy, have highly cash value policy. Let that thing crank and build, be able to borrow again. So use it for business activity. Beautiful. Once you make money from the business activity, take the money, pay it back into the policy. Very simple. Love it. Love that concept. Now he, he, he mentioned something in here. He said, um, he pretty much talked about that. These illustrations and everything are out of date, which, you know, I'm glad that he put that in there. So people actually knew that. And he said, this is true, but I'm afraid that these folks have missed the main point of creating your own banking system. So it sums back to the same thing that you just said about like, you know, you're looking too far, too far into it. Like I'm trying to just get a point across the same thing that, you know, you would just do the example with God in the Bible and whatnot. With that being said, I almost to some degree wish he just didn't put in illustrations and he would have just like kept it very focused on the concept and the idea because it would have make it last long. And you would have to do like more new versions. You could have just essentially not confuse people by like trying to follow. because Even for me, like I look at these illustrations and I'm like, okay, are we taking a loan? Are we taking a withdrawal? Are we paying it back? Or is this coming from the dividend? I'm like, I understand how insurance works, but I just have a hard time understanding the flow of it sometimes because there's five of them. And then in, he talks as like, Hey, in illustration two, but like, I haven't even looked at illustration one yet. Cause I haven't even got to the page yet. So I'm like, wait. My mind kind of thought I was thinking and looking at illustration one. So like it gets really confusing to map the pieces together. So besides that book is great, but I think the way that it was listed, um, I think was, was tough. Um, the other thing too, is he talks about at the end, he's like, Hey, these results are affected on factors, right? And he pretty much says they're affected by the life insurance company, the people that do their job, you know, all of these different factors. I do want to make that very clear as well, that this concept really could only work if it is designed in a specific way that allows you to do this concept. One, that's with a company that can facilitate this. And you do understand essentially how this concept works. And so you can't go, I mean, you can, it's just not going to be optimized if you go into like essentially a state farm and trying to do this, this actually same concept or a stock company where they don't pay a dividend, right? Or you go to somebody that does design an all based policy. I think that was kind of even my story to some degree is when I started my first policy, I wanted a policy that had maximum cash value. And what ended up happening was I got one with very minimal cash value. I got upset. I got angry. I essentially wanted to fight the guy. And I was like, you're a scammer. You're a scammer. And then he got offended. He had to bring in somebody else to redesign it. Luckily, there was a thing where I could redesign it and I got the policy I wanted. I felt good again. You know, this is definitely more of my. my less mature age where I definitely didn't let the spirit take over. But when it's your money, your finance, especially early on, you're just like, man, this doesn't feel good. And I know some of you out there that are listening right now, you're probably feeling the same thing. You look at your policy, you see, oh, shoot, I have no cash value in the first year, no cash value in the second year. And then you come and you see our channel and you see different policies and you see Austin or Alden talking about the cash value you can have and and how they're designed. And you want to essentially be like, wow, I want to throw my hand, give my hands, these hands are free to my life insurance agent. And then, you know, if that is you, just take a breath, relax, reflect, and feel free if you want. We can do a policy review for you guys as well. We have links to do that so you can review them. We can give you insight how it could be salvaged, what you could do next steps, right? you know you made a mistake or maybe you didn't get exactly what you want today, but you can always make a better decision going forth. And that's with all things we do at Mife. So with all that being said, that is my part. And also the other plug is if you're an agent, advisor, financial professional watching this and you want more guidance, we also will have a link down below for you to learn more and potentially talk to either Dom or myself about your situation because we're doing some, stay tuned, we're doing some cool things. And if you're If you are in this space, make it a must to come to our next event because there's so many good things happening. There's just something really powerful about being in person. So, all right. So part five, Austin, you and I divvied this up, and I took the first nine pages, and then you got the last pages. So what I'll do is I'll go through each chapter, share my thoughts, and then I'll let you guys say anything if you want, and then I'll go on to the next chapter. one of the big Big things that I took away from my reading was, you know how a lot of times people make the infinite banking concept feel like this get rich quick deal? It's like, it bothers me so much when people are like, this is the thing, like you'll arbitrage your money. And I just saw another video, very credible person, but he's saying you're going to earn 10% of your cash value. And, you know, you only have to pay 4%. And it's just like, and the reason that frustrates me is they're almost like selling the infinite banking concept as like the get rich quick deal. Whereas Nelson many times in his book, and this is like a common theme as are reflected on the chapters that I read. He's like talking about like the discipline that you'll need. He's talking about like even, you know, when you're convinced, like he's saying that you need to have that desire and burning passion and you need to fight Parkinson's law. And that's like the big thing that I took away from this is. The infinite banking concept or using life insurance is not a sexy, do this thing and your life is going to get changed tomorrow. It really is building that foundation. And it's the same message as buy cash for things. You first of all have to build up that cash. There's that delayed gratification. It's that self-discipline of thanking your future self because you're in a better situation because of your future, of you making decisions today that are going to set yourself up. I think there's a common theme and it has nothing to do with insurance, has nothing to do necessarily with being your own bank, and it just has to do with this, you know, that making decisions, whether it's about your health or about your money, make sure that your future self thanks you. So that was one of the things that I took away from capitalizing your system. He also gives a shout out to, you know, if you want to do something like this, you should find somebody that can help you implement it. He talks about finding money. which made me smile because there's other people in the space that they build their whole brand around, help you find money that you're currently losing unnecessarily and will help you redirect that. I think that's something really powerful about a financial coach, a financial advisor. If they are able to look at your entire situation and say, hey, Austin, you're being inefficient over here. Or, hey, Dom, this is something that you could tweak over here and help you find money that you're currently using, but it may not be as efficient. I think there's really something powerful in that. He talks about it's going to take years to get started. Again, this is not something that's, you know, you don't necessarily make this pitch if you want someone to like jump on fast. It's almost like there's some tendencies like even in the Bible where it talks about, hey, like you will get persecuted. You know, it's like who wants to sign up? You will be persecuted and all. And yet like there's something like this will be worth it in the end. And early on, it's not one of these. It's not Bitcoin. I'll just put it that way. It's not the thing that you'll hopefully get rich overnight. He talks about the cash flow game with Robert Kiyosaki and just the importance of that. So I thought that was cool that Robert Kiyosaki got a shout out. And then this was something that I highlighted. He said, we live in a time where many people know the price of everything, but the value of nothing. This was written pre-AI. 25 years pre-AI. And I think we live in a time where information is so easily available. Like, boom, you can know the answer to everything, but you're lacking wisdom. And I think there's something there that is... really, really valuable, just as something to reflect on is, yeah, it's one thing to maybe know the price or the answer, but do we actually know the value and are we getting wisdom from that information? So this was just the part five opening up. And I think those are some of the key themes that I got from that short chapter. With that last quote, you know, I think that that's obviously something that, you know, that he is. I think it's a question that all of us should be asking. It's a question that I think he's employing to try to redirect some of the criticism of the infinite banking method to, like, I think that you guys, you might, this might not be worth the criticism that's being leveled because, you know, sometimes people might know the price of something, they don't know the value of it. I agree. I think that. That that's something that all of us should consider in no matter no matter what we're choosing to do I often say that like, you know the internet it's great The internet was just coming out, you know when he when he wrote this book we can we can know so many things on the internet There's so much like especially with YouTube if that's how you're watching this video You can find an endless supply of content on YouTube That is really good and is really sound and is researched and it gives you this really vast sort of understanding about something But honestly, a lot of times what people use the internet for on YouTube is like cat videos. And it's the unfortunate reality that the thing that is so powerful that we could use that could be so good for the world and for our families, we use it for relatively meaningless things. Or talking bad about Trump if I know somebody on this call. Oh, yeah. That would be a horrible, horrible way to use videos that you put on YouTube. Absolutely. Yeah. so it would be You know, it's very wise of us to consider, hey, you know, what, what do we know? And it's actually what my pastor mentioned in church a couple weeks ago. He's like, what do you know? And who taught you it? And if you can't answer either of those definitively, like, you should really second guess and you should really investigate whatever it is you're learning. So yeah, I think I'm thank you for highlighting that there, Caleb. It was, I think that's something that all of us should just stop and ponder. Dom, what do you think about this section? Yeah. I also think that even if you do know it and you do know where it came from, you should still investigate it. It's just you can constantly keep having great thought experiments by always questioning your beliefs. All right. So for me, I actually, like I said, I didn't necessarily read this like the in-depth that Caleb did, but like I'm looking through the pages and I have something that's highlighted a couple of things. And I even have something on the side that says, oh. This is good from when I read it the second time. It says, we are not addressing the yield and investment. We are discussing how you finance anything that you buy. And then above it in the title, it talks about, but I can get a higher rate of return. And I think that that is a topic of discussion that comes up way too often in this space, especially when it's people that are brand new, right? And it's always like the buy term, invest the difference, and I can get a higher rate of return on the market. I just really love the idea that Nelson isn't necessarily saying like, hey, at the end of the day, we're not even talking about investments. We're not even talking about rates of return. We're truly talking about something that's foundational. We're truly talking about a system, a process, something that can enhance everything else you're doing. And I think that's where we really put our stake in the ground at as well. It's like, hey, We call it the and asset for a reason. It allows you to do multiple things, your dollars, your multiple jobs, but it's not the everything asset. It's not the asset that is the greatest asset on the planet. It's not the asset that does every single thing. It's just an asset that can enhance all other assets that you already have. And I think that is really important. And we all need that foundationally because we never know what's going to happen in our life. And that's why some of the best planning comes from the planning for the unknowns because all of us will have somebody in our life that will die. We will die. The uncircumstances of health will make it in the way. Loss of job. Like there's so many things that can happen. So creating tools that can help you plan for the worst and pray for the best is essentially a very, very high caliber thing to do when it comes to the space. So there's the first thing. And I think that doubling down on what you talked about, Caleb, just in regards to this line here that he says, there is a delay in time while getting the banking system established. But once this is done, it is a one time only event. And it... Essentially coming back to like, hey, a lot of really good things in life, like they take time. They really do. But once you wait and you plant the seed and you pour water on it and you take the time to allow it to grow, it'll become something special. But it does take time, whether that is business, whether that's your health, whether that's your relationships, whether that's your spirit, like whatever it is. Usually most great things in life take time to be able to pour into to become something special. So there's that. And then the last thing I really like that he used Bible verses like throughout this, just personally, just from a faith background. and the one that he says is Um, I'm just making sure that it's still aligned with your chapter, Caleb, and I did not overstep. Perfect. Perfect. it says a good man leaves an inheritance for his children's children. Proverbs 13, 22 is something that I, I kind of sometimes always struggle with this. Um, and then now I no longer struggle with it. The reason why I struggled with it originally is because when I heard the word inheritance, my first headspace went to money. It went to like, oh. Like if I'm going to do good, I need to essentially create money to pass down from one generation to the next. And that's what we always think about naturally with inheritance. And then as I started reflecting and thinking about it, I started saying, OK, well, inheritance could actually be more than just money. Inheritance can be actually more powerfully your education, a system, a process, a belief. And that's really what this is talking about is it's like, hey, yeah, I'm getting a life insurance to pass down to the next generation from a death benefit perspective. And you could argue that just doing that alone, you could probably ruin somebody by giving them way too much money up front. But if you put things in place, whether that's a trust, whether that's belief systems, whether that's foundational documents, whether that's coming together once a year and talking about the things that you believe about, whether that's your spirituality, whether that's the Holy Spirit, whatever it is, creating that inheritance and passing it down is some of the most powerful things that you can do from one generation to the next. And that's really what I think God is saying here is. a good man leaves an inheritance which is the good things that he's desired for us to have to be able to pass down to one to the next yeah i i would agree with that uh dom i think that like i think your your exploration of that other has is sound is that like ultimately yeah there's lots of different kinds of inheritances there's emotional inheritances there's spiritual inheritances there's relational inheritances and there's financial inheritance it's not to be discounted this is actually a conversation i have with quite a few people is that like hey these are all important. And there's some of these that I can't help you with, but they are very important. But one thing that we can help with, that we can attend to, that does deserve our planning for in this life is the financial piece. And that's something that you have the power to do right now. So I totally agree, Dom. And also with Proverbs, obviously, Proverbs is not similar to other Bible books in that it's like, you know, that one verse is like that necessarily has this like direct application to maybe like even like life. but Proverbs is how life generally works. And it's kind of is a statement of like, you know, generally speaking, a good man is one who thinks ahead and leaves an inheritance to his family. And so I think like kind of general sort of brushstrokes from that is that like we want to think ahead and we want to we want to leave our family something when we're not here to support them any longer. And I think the financial piece is one piece of that. All right. Love it. We're going to move on to the next chapter, which is the retirement trap. So if you're following along in the big black book, it's page 66. And these are some of the things that I took away from this section. So did I? So then hold on just so I make sure. I did jump ahead because I thought your overview was the overview on the whole chapter that you did. I didn't know that you just did one segment. Yeah, yeah. That's okay. You pre-framed. I was literally just about to say, I'm like, man, we're doing so good on time. I was like, 37 minutes. We've done my part. We've done Kayla's part. And now we do, you know, wow. I knew you were stealing my thunder and that's okay. That was completely unintentional. You guys can see the difference in how Caleb explains things from a in-depthness of chapter by chapter versus me giving one. Yeah. Yeah. You did a whole, I did a chapter as much detail as you did a whole section. All right. So retirement trap on page 66. Nelson really believes that the government sponsored plans are going to be a disaster. I think that's a understatement, but he he doesn't budge on this. And there's some people that, you know, will play. And I would even put myself in this category to be like, hey, listen, I'm not a big fan of it, but I'm not I'm not going to say that it's a it's not a scam. I like it. You need you should be properly diversified. And yes, I want to acknowledge that the U.S. government heavily in debt. And like there's there's things that are you just need to factor in from a risk standpoint. And Nelson is would would say that that's an extreme statement. And if you just look at history, like they will come after our money. He is quoted for saying Social Security will fall as all socialist programs since time began. Before it falls, they will attempt to prop it up. The sources of funds that. They use is the reserve of private pension plans and other government sanctioned schemes. And you can say that there's a there's parts of this that are very true. I mean, Social Security, as it relates to today, is not sustainable. There are going to be things that are like I think every one of us on this call would acknowledge that there's issues and there's going to be some very interesting accounting from a standpoint of how things go. And I think the whole idea is if you take if you zoom out, don't try to get super technical. are are Are Roths, are they going to take your money kind of deal? But if you just zoom out 300, 400, 500 years with time, usually you'll start seeing patterns. And I think if someone's unemotionally willing to zoom out, they're like, hey, these government programs are just it's not going to last 1,000 years. Or something crazy needs to be changed. And if that's the epiphany that Nelson's having, he's like, why in the world would you partner with someone that's in such a bad shape? In the example of the And Asset book. I shared a story that I've heard from somewhere else, but it's this idea of like if you're at a bank and would you like would you go into business with someone that was in really, really bad shape and could change the rules on you at any time? Like the answer would be no, and yet you could make the argument that the US government is very similar to that. So that's one of the reasons, by the way, I think this book has taken off is that there are a lot of people that very much appreciate this, and they rally to this type of strategy as like an FU. or a middle finger to the industry. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, but there are people out there that their reason to do this strategy is a distrust. And then three other things that I wrote down here is the most dangerous thing you can do with money is to put it into a government sponsored scheme. That's one of the things that he mentioned. And then he did say this again, which is a callback to something that he said pretty much word for word before, is When you create a problem and then a solution to that problem, shouldn't you be a little bit skeptical? I think that's, again, it's like taxation is an issue. Hey, we have a solution to this. And again, if you take a step back, I appreciate Nelson's thoughts around that. And then he also mentioned that retirement is not found in the Bible. And this obsession with retirement being taken out of service is just something that won't compound well. you will die sooner. And this idea of being stripped of value creation, I just think is a very interesting idea. Even in someone, you know, we have a whole section in our business that helps people design retirement plans and optimize their cash flow. And like, I love that. I think you should be in a financial situation where you can choose to do what you want to do. I think it would be a shame if you just sat back and you're like, I'm just going to watch TV and turn off my brain, I think your health and you'll die sooner. I think the stats are pretty clear as it relates to that because you're losing your will to live. And at the end of the day, we're here to serve. So that's the retirement trap. Due to time, let's make this quick. But any thoughts that you guys want to say as it relates to that? And I just want to say this is a book review. I'm not saying that I endorse all the things that Nelson talks about. I think I really appreciate the macro and the micro. I used to be very anti-government plans, and now I'm... not as anti, but big picture, I don't assume that like I'm very skeptical when I do things, just like when I invest, just like when I do businesses, I'm always looking for like ways where I'm going to lose money. I'm very aware whenever you do a government sponsored plan that there could be things that change. And I'm not going to be like one of these people that are like, oh, this is impossible. I never thought this could happen. That would be very hypocritical for me to say that. We've helped people unlock millions of dollars in hidden value just by reviewing. their old life insurance policies. Unfortunately, thousands of people do not have life insurance policies set up properly, which could be costing them a lot of money. If you have a policy, the few minutes it takes to fill out our form could be the difference between continuing to waste money or unlocking serious value. If you qualify, we'll review your policy 100% for free and give you the honest breakdown you deserve. Click the link in the description or take comment below to apply. Back to the video. I just want to say one thing in regards to the retirement conversation as a whole. I also want to challenge the things that we constantly say. And I think that even for ourselves, we've just said that retirement is a bad word. And I even want to try and redefine it based off of definition and for us to really figure out like is retirement like the end goal? I think that's where it starts with clarity and understanding what it is that you really want. And to Kayla's point, like I think if you were a person that just sat on the couch watching TV, you'd probably just die as like literally. As most people in the studies that show, like if you quote unquote retire and you don't do nothing within like a five year window. you likely do just die, right? But what I did is I asked Shadjid P, I said, hey, what is the definition of retirement? And it essentially says, it's the stage in life when a person permanently leaves the workforce, right? And then it says, you know, some other things after it. So then the workforce then is this, I said, okay, well, what is the workforce definition? Well, it's a group of people who are employed or actively seeking employment. So when I hear that, I say, okay, you can quote unquote be retired based off of the things that Caleb said, like, hey, we can help you create cashflow, have abundance But just because you're quote unquote retired doesn't necessarily mean you're quote unquote out of commission. You could do all of the things that really do matter to you from a personal perspective. You can now go volunteer. You can now go do a nonprofit. Like for me, there's going to be a point in time where I probably will maybe stop working, working like quote unquote earning income. But like, I will probably travel the world, helping kids in third world countries, building sports fields and sharing the gospel. All right. Maybe I'll be 70 when that time comes. I have no idea, but that is a headspace for me. I will be retired technically because I won't be. quote-unquote actively seeking work. And so for everybody, it's important for them to really define the things that they value, the things that they believe in, the things that they want to go through. Caleb uses the word value creator, right? You can be retired and still be a value creator. Just because you're quote-unquote retired, I don't want to necessarily put a bad word or a bad taste on that because we have done that. And I personally have done that. It's like, oh, you're retired. And you say you want to be retired. It's like, hey, that's not good. It's like, well, let's define what retirement looks like for you. And that creates a whole different conversation. Well said. Austin, you good? I'd say, yeah, I'm pretty good. I guess one very, very quick thing to note, even in support of Nelson Nash, just saying don't just necessarily count on Social Security. Obviously, when Social Security was instituted, the birth rate in this country was much higher. It was around three births per woman in the early 1900s of childbearing age. And it peaked in the 1960s. It got up to, I think it was the... four births per woman. And now we're at 1.6 and social security relies on a larger base in the population supporting a smaller amount of retired people. So if that ever gets inverted and there's not as many people down here, like just don't count on social security alone, being able to do it for you. I think, I think that's the big thing to take away here is that like, okay, it's here now. It might not be here forever. And even if it is, it might not be enough to actually give you the standard of living you want. Maybe focus on making a banking system now that can support you with passive income in the future. Yeah. If you're under the age of 40, you have to mentally be not relying on it. Even though it could be around, I think there could be huge problems if it isn't for some people. But if you're someone who's actually taking time to watch these type of videos, you should just assume that you won't have access to it and just plan for it not. And then if it is, it's great. But I could not agree more. that there's going to be things that get shaken up. Personally, I think there should be things that are shaken up just for that same reason. And it's like, you know, maybe we should push the aid. There's a lot of things that should be mentioned and talked about, but it's above our pay grade. You know, we can commentate, but I don't think we'll be at the table helping make that decision. All right, so the next chapter is the cost of acquisition. Now, a lot of this book is around the power of financing. You finance everything that you purchase. And Nelson mentions that the cost of finance of business is necessary, but very few people address the actual cost of the acquisition, like the cost there. And so what he talks about is like even he used an example of a hammer. It costs $17, but if you look at all the people that are all the time that goes into selling that hammer, like it's pretty dramatic. And so it just goes to show when you have... your banking system, you can, again, not just you have the financing piece, but it goes back to the golden rules. Those who have the goals, gold can make the rules and you have opportunities to maybe make moves that many, many don't. And so he talks about in nonprofits, a lot of times it takes a lot of money to raise a dollar. So it's not free. So again, it goes back to there are opportunities when you have money, there will be certain doors that are only available for the person that has the ability to acquire or say yes to that. Again, this is like a more fleshed out version of the golden rule. And then this is a quote. He says, if you are in command of the banking function, you do not have to go through all the expensive erosion. The infinite banking concept does exactly that. You can make timely decisions. There's no cost of acquisition, which I disagree with, but that's what he wrote. You are in competition with others who must go through the erosion. um that has been outlined guess who wins so again it's like the idea is if you have built up money and someone doesn't you have an opera you you have opportunities that they don't i think to say that there's no cost, we have to just factor in opportunity costs. There's the opportunity cost of anything you do. I mean, you could say that, okay, I'm going to be disciplined, and I'm going to save for the next couple of years to build up my pool of capital to be able to make moves. And most people that do that are going to get a better result long term. And then there's some people that are like, you know what, I'm going to put my money on a credit card, pay 30% interest, do this thing. And that thing may turn out extremely well, extremely well. Now, does that mean that Caleb Williams is endorsing everyone to use credit card debt to do X? No, not at all. I don't think you should do it. And I think there's always quote unquote exceptions to the rule. And so that's where that's where any anytime you say that there's no cost or that this is, you know, we have to be very careful on how to make like absolutes. but overall it just highlights this in the way that I read this is it's just a deeper understanding of the golden rule And understanding that having the ability and the means to acquire things gives you an advantage. And I think in business alone, that tends to be true. If we compete with someone else that has no money, they may work scrappier. They may actually have advantages that we don't. But we also can weather some storms and potentially say yes to things that are just off the table for someone that's just getting started. So that is that chapter. Any thoughts before I go on to the next? Something that I'll just say from a practical perspective, just when you're looking at how to use these policies, when you borrow against your policy, you go to the insurance company to request a loan. And there's different ways depending on the company. You could either call, you could fill out a form. Some have apps that you could go in and you could request it. I have seen where I have actually gotten funds within 24 hours just from how quick that can be. right? And it just talks about, you know, the cost of an opportunity, right? You could miss out an opportunity if you don't have access to money quickly. Now, at the same time during COVID, I tried to take a loan and it took like 19 days. So depending on essentially the season, the timeframe, those are always the things that are important. And also he talks about like banks and the financing and like relative to the policy, we do some strategies as well that implement the banks that create third-party systems that are within the same structure that work well with your life insurance policy, that you can use your policy as collateral to get a line of credit from maybe somebody who specializes in this concept that gets you money even faster than you would if you were to borrow against it and get the loan from the insurance company. And so I don't like the potential. I mean, some of that stuff probably really wasn't even thought of or created back then. So I also want to. Yeah. And I think the other. The other thing is there's a difference between a bank that's using your cash value as collateral and essentially creating a HELOC versus a bank that's saying, Dom, prove to me why you deserve to get this loan. But you're totally right. I mean, it's technically the banking system, but there's a difference in control. 100%. I couldn't agree with you anymore. I just wanted to know that I don't like to demonize necessarily the bank collectively. I know sometimes that's what it feels like in the book, but I do agree with a lot of things that he says. All right. All right. The next chapter is, but I can get a higher rate of return, which maybe Dom, you already alluded to. And this one is, I'm really grateful that he wrote this because this comes up all the time. And, you know, this is what I wrote. He said, we are not addressing the yield of an investment. We're discussing how you finance anything that you buy. It's always better to finance through your banking system than out of pocket. And then he talks about a couple of examples where he's using a $20,000 investment and one person does the investment and then you have to take out taxes and all. And then you get a profit. Then someone else uses their banking loan. They actually look like they make less profit on paper, but his whole concept is the interest that you would be paying to the bank is now going to yourself. There's a little bit of apples to apples may not be completely the same here, but one of the things is you pay less in taxes because he's also making the assumption that your loan interest would be tax-deductible. Again, not tax advice. Some people would agree with that. Some people wouldn't. But the point here is that just because you can get a higher rate of return. And if that's your excuse to why you shouldn't do life insurance, you clearly don't understand the system. I feel like this really resonates because probably one of the biggest pushbacks that we are constantly parroting is when we're responding to the people that are like, this is a terrible rate of return. This is a terrible investment. There's a reason I say that life insurance is not an investment because it's not. And it almost lets people kind of like Take a breath and be like, hey, if you want to invest in X, Y, and Z, you can do it. Now, the short-term deal is you may have less money to invest in that thing. So there's actually a negative opportunity cost associated with that. Long-term, you'll have more than if it was in a savings or checking. And with life insurance, you have way more benefits than you would in a savings account. So long-term, you're totally right. using your banking system to store. use, it protects your family, like that's awesome. And I think long term, many people, including myself, would say like, I 100% agree. It's not about getting a better rate of return. Life insurance is not an investment. It's how you use it. And in the short term, if someone, all they care about is rate of return, I just find that this strategy alone, it's just probably something that they're not going to do. Not that they shouldn't, they shouldn't, but it's just, it goes back to their mindset of like, if they, if it's all about All the rates of return and all this stuff, it's just usually they don't value building the foundation. Usually they don't value like, hey, it's going to take a couple of years to get this thing off the ground. Usually these people are the ones that are doing well, but then they also make decisions that potentially reset them. And that's Nelson's whole idea of like it's not about the rate of return. And if you're mentioning that, you don't get the system. And I think this chapter alone, really, really powerful. And I feel like to the day that we die, gentlemen, as long as we're in this space, we're going to have to combat that because that's going to be a constant thing that people say. And on the flip side, people in the insurance industry, when the market drops, they're going to be the ones that are like, I've never lost money, blah, blah, blah. So they're almost like pouring gasoline on themselves because they're when times they'll use it as a selling point, but and they'll so they're like comparing it to investments in pockets of time, but over a long period of time. they're not going to win that battle. And in the fact that they're having that battle means that there's a lack of understanding. That's good. That's real good. I'll even add, I'll add to that, that, yeah, I have this conversation with many people, the way that people, the metrics that are used when talking about life insurance and then talking about volatile asset classes, there are two different metrics, right? Life insurance, internal rate of return. Other income-producing activities or other investments is going to be like average rate of return. And those are two different things. And I actually just recorded a video that'll get put out sometime in the next month here that actually goes in depth and kind of breaking down how to actually calculate both of those metrics and why it's an apples to oranges kind of comparison when you're trying to talk about... why life insurance is a bad investment because it has a bad rate of return. A lot of the times people think of when they say the words like rate of return or average rate of return, they actually, the way they conceive of it is they assume it actually works like internal rate of return when average rate of return does not work that way. And once again, if you are interested in that, you can wait, just wait for that video of mine to come out. You can watch it, comment on it, tell me if you think that I'm on track or not. but just Yeah, not a fair comparison. It's a liquid savings tool, just like what Caleb said. It's a great place, like a high-yield check in your savings account to save your money, but with a bunch of extra benefits too. And I even actually also circled in this chapter, because I read this part too. I knew that Caleb was doing it, but I read it. Was that he once again said, he's trying to come back on what he said earlier about how the interest that you're paying in your policy goes into the money pool. And I circled it and I'm like, it only goes in indirectly. It's not a direct one-to-one dollar. Every dollar you pay in interest also comes back and is able to be utilized via your cash value in the growth of your cash value. So I said indirectly, not directly. And then he even said, hey, if this is a problem to you, please study diagram on page 26. And it's a very kind of rough diagram about like your money pool and all the different things that are feeding into your money pool. but simply put, let us... make absolutely no bones about it that when you pay interest on your policy loan, it is profit of the carrier. You are not seeing a one-to-one direct increase in the cash value of your policy by paying off the interest on the loan. That is not what is happening. Because you are a policy owner and therefore part owner of the mutual company, you are entitled to a share of the... of the profit of the carrier in the form of dividends. And because this is profit of the carrier, it will increase the profitability of the carrier as a whole. And therefore you will share in that, albeit indirectly. So that is the slightly longer version of explaining that. Well said. The idea of it knocked it out of the park. His actual math example would be something that I would shy away from, but I think that's the parallel to this whole book. This concept's great. Let's stay out of the illustrations next time. 99.9% everything, Austin, you said I would 100% agree with. The other 0.01% would be the loan interest isn't necessarily. profit to the insurance company we just don't know it's revenue yeah dom's not picking on you austin i i don't know what you said he just got a bone to pick with austin he's just it was it was really it was really good that's uh i i did appreciate what you said all right so last but not least and and due to time i'm going to move this along here an even distribution of age classes holding this this book up What Would the Rockefellers Do? Because I think the What Would the Rockefellers Do? book very much illustrates this concept. And by the way, if you're someone that is watching this and you want this copy, we got a bunch of copies since I had the pleasure of writing forward to Garrett Gunderson's book, What Would the Rockefellers? We want to give you this copy. So there's a link somewhere down below. You can get a digital copy on us. And then if you just pay for the actual shipping, we'll get this sent to you. So there's two links. But if you want the digital copy, you can have it for free. And I was thinking about this book when I was reading Nelson's idea because he talks about forestry, talks about like 4,000 acres. Each year, you plant trees. And over 40 years, again, this is like this is a this is not like 30 days later, you'll have your money. It's like 40 years. But if you can do that, you're essentially building something that's going to dominate on autopilot. And. It should be convicting when you think of long-term, like thinking about your family. You can actually design a system that is bulletproof, and one of the ways to do that is to think long-term and to use things like trust and life insurance. And so that's one of the things that Nelson talked about, and he talks about four generations, the senior adult generation, the middle-aged generation, the childbearing generation, and the birth-to-adult generation. And the idea is somewhat simple. It's like hat. practice the infinite banking concept on each generation. And then when the generation graduates, as Nelson says, then that money will flow down to the next. And it's like you keep the system going. And it's my parents have life insurance. My family has life insurance. My daughter has life insurance. So it's one of those, you know, we're getting that started. And it's one of those things that I think is a very powerful thing. Let me just read to you what he says after that. As generation becomes grandparents, they buy life insurance on their grandchildren. If the message is passed on to each childbearing generation, note the word message, not the policies. Policies are important. It goes back to what Dom said earlier. It's more than just the insurance policies. It's the message. As they become grandparents, they can create the same effect as the even distribution of age classes in the growing trees. but it is far more profitable and certain as to the results. For example, there's no forest fires to think about, no plant diseases, no storms, no property taxes. You've created perpetual motion in your family's financial world. So he used the forest example as like the example of like doing this the right way. And he even said, if you do the banking system like this, it's even better because there's less outside factors. I would say. the biggest risk to this is your passing on your values, your mindset. I have seen firsthand, one generation wants to do this, next generation doesn't. And so you have to be very thoughtful. That's why I think this book, what the Rockefellers do, goes into more detail on how you can be intentional about this. But again, it goes back to don't just try to outsource. the things that are most important because even an insurance policy won't be able to save that, but an insurance policy is a really effective way to plan each generation. And so with the time that we have left, Austin, I'll hand it over to you as you got the last couple pages. And I would love if we have time to go through page 85 where he talks about points to consider because he talks about seven really good summaries. And so I will hand it over to you, my friends, and you can help us bring this thing home. All right, bringing it all home. So a couple of subchapters here. One, the first one is a different look at the monetary value of a college degree. It kind of goes into, is a college degree worth it? And it's still a very... a very prescient topic for today. Another one is, am I uninsurable? And then he just kind of has, kind of ends with some points to consider. So we'll look at that first one. Is a college degree worth it? And he basically starts by saying he's unconvinced that a college degree is worth it because if you put the same amount of dollars into a life insurance policy, you did kind of a forepay and then just let that build over the course of your entire life, That when you got to the point when you wanted to take passive income, that the amount that you could have gotten had you used those $80,000 for the life insurance policy would be greater than had you gotten a degree and whatever kind of certifications that you could have gotten and whatever kind of income you could have earned from that degree. So I think his point here is worth making just because when you're going to college, I do think you need to be aware. of, and this is coming from the guy who went to college being an English teacher. So this is a little bit of self-reflection is going on here, but aware of like, okay, I'm spending this much money to go to college and my job is going to earn me this much. You know, is it worth it? Now I took, I, I fortunately, you know, I, even though I was going to be an English teacher, I was like, okay, I know what English teachers make and I'm going to go to a college that's not that I can get a degree, but not expensively. And so instead of going someplace out of state, or someplace that could have been a really great college experience. I stayed in state. I got a really big scholarship at the school that I went to, and I was able to actually to get my degree very cheaply. So, and now, though, I'm not using my English teacher degree anymore. However, and I want to tie this back to something that he says. He has this, he quotes the Dr. Herbert Rotfield. It has this long passage that he quotes in here. And I think, and this, because I'm a life, I'm a student, like a lifelong student. I love learning. I love history. I love the way the world works. I love the way that God has created everything to fit together. And I'm just fascinated by the way that we relate to each other as humans and the way that we interact with the world. And I think the value you get from a college education is not just certifications. And Nelson kind of implies in what he says that the main value in a college education is... the degree that you get from it and whatever job that will allow you to have. But also when you're going to college is that you need to be going there, not just for a degree, but also to, to learn. Um, there was this quote that the guy had, the Herbert Rothfields that he said, many want credits, but don't want to learn. And I think that like, if you go to college just because of the degree that you will get and you don't all, and you don't focus on learning, I think that you're going to put yourself at a huge disadvantage, not just during your college years, but for the rest of your life. Because I think that this mentality that, oh, I just want the end result of the thing without the hard work I need to put in to get the thing. That is an incredibly, I'm going to use a bigger deal, deleterious. That's an incredibly degrading mindset to have and to take into life because we learn it is human to learn. We need to learn and we learn by the places that we put ourselves into, the people that we're in relationship with. So I'd say be aware of how much college costs. But also, if you are going to go to college, be sure that you learn. Because if you go to college just to get a degree with some writing on it, and then let's say you end up not even using that degree, I would absolutely say it would have been better for you to stick that money in a life insurance policy and then just... have some passive income at the end of life because you didn't learn and you're not using your degree. If you're going to college, you learn and you to get a degree. Well, even if you don't end up using the degree, at least you'd have that, that student mentality that you have that love of learning that you hopefully carry with you for the rest of your life. Um, I do think the point he raises though is good and that it's, it's just good to recognize that there is a cost to going to college as opposed to doing something else with the money. What are your guys' thoughts on that? I think Nelson's ahead of his time. I mean, writing this today would be like, there'd be a lot of people that'd be like, yeah, I agree with that. But at the time that he wrote it, it was, I mean, college was like the thing. And the thought of not going to college is really, really frowned upon. And I think that just goes to show that Nelson's a free thinker. And, you know, if he, I don't know, it makes some of his other claims about government sponsored plans a little bit more real to me. and But I agree with everything you said. I mean, it's whatever you call it, you should always be. Like you are your greatest investment. And so if it was between investing in myself or putting into a policy, I wouldn't even think twice. It'd be myself. And if you're a student, you should be able to do both because you understand the concept. So it shouldn't be an either or it should be an and. But if I only had to choose one, it would be this. But there's a lot of people that are going to school with and unfortunately, they're not listening to this podcast, but they're not they have no they're not thinking ahead and the school becomes a huge liability that should be an asset. So that's my that's my thoughts on that. Dom, any thoughts from you? Yeah, I think the reason why this book is so good is I think it can speak to a lot of people, which I also think is why The Rams has become so popular is because there's a lot of things that are said universally. Like that's what they're said, but that doesn't really, it's not black and white. So the conversation we're having right now is it's not universal as in like this is or this isn't. It really comes down to the person that we're talking to of like your goals, your mindset. where you put your dollars, how the policy is even designed, right? What do you use the policy for if you choose to use it or not? Because same with Dave Ramsey, he has these very sound principles that like 85% of people can do, but there's the 15% of people that if they do something slightly different, will probably get greater results. And so I do know people that probably will go to college and get a surgeon degree and they will make a million dollars plus a year and get out of there really fast and then. take that money and then go start a policy and then create more assets by doing so. And so there's like, there's the 15% of people that would just do something different. So I do appreciate his forward thinking again, like Caleb said, he's ahead of his time. And I think that's why he became so popularized is because he was ahead of his time, um, trying to stick it to the man and standing up for the average person. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. and he, he comes up with two different illustrations. And one of them is just like a guy who's was a John Q student puts in 20,000 a year for four years. And he kind of looks at, OK, you know, what is going to be available to him at age 70 when he starts taking some passive income, which is 150,000. And then he did one on Susie Q, which is illustration two, where he puts in 35,000 a year for seven years. And it was because he's saying, OK, what if this student's going to medical school, for instance? And so it's slightly more for a slightly longer period of time. And then the amount that she also, because she is a woman and women have a lower statistical mortality, they have cheaper insurance rates. She's able to start taking 550,000 a year from the policy starting at age 70. So once again, something to consider is that like, what is the cost? Like we were, Dom was mentioning earlier, like opportunity costs. There was a very real cost to doing this. And if you think that you will get more out of doing it than by not doing it, then do it. But realize that by going to college, you are, especially if you're... If you don't have a good mindset and you're in a degree that's just not going to really pay itself back, so to speak, in the future, is that you might have just been better just putting it in a life insurance policy. But once again, very situation specific. There's not a bandaid approach. There's not a one size fits all sort of answer that we have here. Just consider the cost. Next one. What if I am uninsurable? I've run into this problem many times. Some people call in. And unfortunately, this is actually probably the saddest part to this is the people who call in who are uninsurable are often the most financially successful of the people that I have talked to. And clearly they're and maybe I'll say not every time, but what it appears is that their financial success has come at the expense of their health. So you might, you know, be... killing it financially, but in doing so you've made yourself uninsurable. And the most, the biggest tragedy here is not the fact that you're uninsurable. It's the fact that you have lowered your life expectancy due to your single-minded pursuit of the one thing in life that matters to you. But right here, what if I uninsurable Nelson? And this is a very, very good way that if you are insurable for some reason, any reason at all, whether, whether it's a completely out of your control reason or it's an in-your-control reason. that you can get insurance on other people in your family. And specifically, he mentions here his wife, who's about the same age, or his daughter, Jill, who's in excellent health. And he looks into, hey, if you know that you're insurable, you can do this exact same system by getting a policy on your daughter. And everything works the exact same. The only thing is that the daughter would just need to sign off on a piece of paper, acknowledging that somebody else is going to own an insurance policy on her. And he shows that they pay into this policy for 20 years. He's able to recoup all of his contributions as passive income when the time is right. And then. When it is his time to die, his daughter gets a huge legacy, which is the power of the and asset is that you've given your dollars multiple jobs. She gets a huge gift from him, even though he's no longer alive to share his life with her or to guide her, to lead her and to be her father is that he can provide for her beyond the grave so that she can be as well set up in life financially speaking as possible. And so I think that's just a really cool example of giving your dollars multiple jobs. Thoughts? I think we have plenty of examples of people that maybe aren't insurable. I like the point that you're even making that there's something to think deeper about why that's the case. But the fact of the matter is they can use business partners, spouses, parents, children, grandparents. And so while it's unfortunate, there's a lot of ways that you can utilize the system. So I think that was well said. Very well said. I think it's the quote that's quoted to the Dalai Lama where it's like, the man sacrifices the man spends the majority of his life sacrificing his health to make money. Then he sacrifices his money the remainder of his life to recuperate his health, right? It's like spend all that time locked in on the one thing that you guys talked about of just like being unintentional, making a ton of money. Then you lose your relationships, you lose your health, and then you get to the end of life, and you have all this money, and you realize, man, all I want back in my life is my relationships and my health. The only resource you have is money, so you try to spend all of it to get back those two things. And that's why sometimes you see dads, parents, grandparents try to buy back the love of the kids that they didn't get to spend the time with early on as well. And a lot of times it's too late, too late for your health, too late for the relationships in a lot of instances. So it becomes tough. I mean, I think there's also an example of even the front-loading. Sometimes, like in everything, you don't necessarily see the benefits early on, but front-loading your time into things that you care about most. So let's move on before I start crying. But, yeah, I think there's something powerful there. Yeah, that's what kids are. Kids are front-loading your time. Absolutely. All right, that's pretty much it. that's really that's really like the majority of it right there but the points to consider i think would be great for us to end on i don't know if you had a chance to look at that or if you want me to go through it i i did but i i didn't really find it like jaw-dropping at all so if you have things you want to hit please do um i think i think it's like in anything it's like okay this was nelson as he's wrapping up this book this is the thing that he like there's there's six things and so There are only two sources of income. people at work and and money at work and you can be in fact that the modern day family that you know has no so it's just like that that's that's something that's interesting uh he talks about if you knew at at passive income time that you would be getting back everything that you paid into a system tax-free would you object to putting in more money into it that's an interesting thought experiment to say like hey you're getting all this money back to income tax-free now the deal is you might not be getting it back but your state is getting it back um and then the other the other place that i just highlighted is this this constant back and forth to um your your wealth has to has to reside somewhere where would you prefer for it to be resided in real estate the stock market or life insurance again that's when you know when people are going back and forth we're talking about storing using your money in this example we're not talking about investing so it's like Is real estate the best place to store your money and use it? Is the stock market the best place to store and use it? Or is insurance policies that are with mutual dividend paying companies? And then the idea is you finance everything that you buy. You either pay interest to someone or give up interest. I think that's going to be a constant understanding opportunity cost. And then your need for finance during your lifetime exceeds your need for life insurance. But when you solve your need for finance, you will more than solve your need for life insurance. And I. I think that was, again, some of the takeaways that I got from how Nelson chose to end this book. It would be great, I think, to end this collectively. One, great book. We obviously shared our thoughts throughout. It's exhausting, a lot of time and energy to read the book, but grateful we did. But Caleb, you have the... personal experience of actually meeting Nelson and you had an interview with him. It would be great if you just had two minutes to end this on what was your experience like with him and who he was as a man. Hugh, appreciate this. And I'll say as I'll answer that in a second. If you're someone that wants help or wants to talk to our team, we want to serve you. And the reason we're doing this podcast is just to candidly talk about issues and ideas. And so we have links down below, reach out to us. And if you have topics that you want us to talk about, please let us know. And Dom, to answer your question. Nelson was extremely humble and cared about the truth. And he was not playing games. He wasn't thinking multiple steps ahead. He was extremely present. He used a lot of stories to illustrate examples. And you could tell that he cared deeply about how you think about something. So there would be times that I would ask questions, and he would not directly give me the answer. He would give stories and parables. and all and eventually you get to the answer happened to be a lot more memorable but i think there was something that was taught to me and nelson even says things need to be caught i caught this uh just around the beautiful beauty around not just being told how to think because especially in the world of chat gbt like give me 10 reasons to do like it'll just tell you it and then you turn your brain off and there's something really valuable in like actually thinking through why you do what you want. what, what you need to do. And that's, um, I have actually a two plus hours conversation of me talking with Nelson before I did the podcast with him. I actually recorded it. We may release it in the future. Um, and the reason I did that was to get the stories out. Cause I wanted to like the interview to be really tight. I'm really grateful for that. And it, it goes to show that I wanted to be like, you know, be efficient and, and parts of that I'm. glad and parts of that I need to really check my ego at the door and say like, maybe it's not about the efficiency. Maybe it's not about the speed of the answer. It's about helping people really get that conviction and everyone will have a different interpretation. I think not to put Nelson and Jesus on the same map at all, but you know, Nelson was a follower of Jesus and Jesus, a lot of times would do the same thing. He would talk in parables. He wouldn't necessarily give super, super black and white answers. And I think there's some wisdom in that. And the takeaway for me is even in the midst of understanding the strategy to have humility. And like he had tremendous humility and he would be the one person that wouldn't necessarily need to. He wrote the book. But he had a ton of humility and I find that myself and others could get the feeling that the arrival syndrome of this. And so that would be my takeaway. And Nelson, I appreciate the legacy that you're living out. And thank you for writing this book. And it's been an honor discussing this and going through the series with you guys. Thank you, Caleb. It was a great way to end it. Agreed. Thank you very much for having us do this.