The Curtis Ray Interview Legal Threats MPI Strategy, Industry Backlash

 You go Google Curtis Ray in the first 19 things where negative comments, articles, videos, or something about me. He told the state of Washington that I stole $20 million from the public. The place in here where it says Curtis says that an IELs an investment plan and the A personality means like BS. Show me where I've ever used the word investment ever and it's like what is going on here? Now we just can't be a decision that hey you can have an opinion you can say whatever you want, but if you say anything that is not accurate. Have you changed your opinions at all or how you talk about this or you under the opinion that you did everything absolutely right? Your situation is a little bit different. Your guess set a few things that aren't accurate. Why didn't you reach out either to many or other people and say like hey you got these wrong? There was nothing that crazy inside your little podcast besides. Curtis Ray, welcome to the Better Bowl Show. Thanks man, I appreciate the invitation. I'm going to set the stage here and then we can dive into wherever you want to start. So just to set the stage for a lot of people that are watching they don't they have contacts. But if this is your first video, you may want to go back and watch a couple other videos first. It gives you maybe more context. But I released two videos, one with Rocky, one with you in July of this year. And it was essentially because I've heard a ton about you, especially a couple of years ago because of your amazing marketing. You were a lot of people were talking about you. People in the insurance space, people not in the insurance space. I explain this in my video with Rocky. I also explain this in my recent video that I did. Now I don't want this channel to be like a this person's exposed. I'm trying to call people out. So I decided not to air those. I release them in July. I understand that that timing looks us. I promised to you I didn't know anything from a standpoint, but we'll probably be talking later in this video. And then my was going to go on. I actually did hear about the Washington season to cis. But I decided not to make any video on that. Because again, it's not like we're super close friends. But I have no ill will to people in the space. And I don't want to use this channel to try to intentionally take anybody down. And then I got a letter from your legal team. And I made a video about that going through. I decided to take down the video that I did with Rocky, but document the the process of what the letter said. To your credit, you reached out and and was like, Hey, let's let's have a conversation. And what you what you said, which I think is very realistic is to say, Hey, I don't want this to be a gotcha interview. So you have my word that I'm not here to try to get you or try to like paint you in a corner on anything. But you did say I could ask any questions. And then you said that the turn around should be quick. And at the time we're we're making this on the third. And this the hope is that this video is out either Monday or Tuesday of next week. And so if I miss anything in context, I just want to set the stage and then we can dive in to I think the three buckets so we could talk about we could talk about MPI. If you want, we also don't have to because I don't know if anything has changed your mind or my mind. But we can talk about that. I'm super open to different conversations. We can talk about the defamation letter. And we can also talk about the Washington season to sis. And I again, my goal on this channel is to increase conversations with people that might not agree. And so you coming onto this show, actually, I'm done. Like I don't have to perform anything after this because you're you're helping with that goal. So without without further ado, handing over the microphone to you, where would you like to begin? We can kind of have a great conversation. Let's start with the wash chill. Let's get the big the big one out of the way because that's the one everyone knows about right now and what happened there. And then we can just jump to the next ones. Because it is a it's important that people understand the context of it. And you know, I want to be a leader in this industry. And sometimes leaders do have to go through some fire sometimes and we're in the trenches. And we make decisions that are vague. You know, there's a lot of gray area inside the industry. And sometimes you step in that gray and you're like, OK, I was advised this, but it's not exactly right. And so let's jump right into that. Okay, let's let's jump into Washington. Obviously, there's documents floating around out there. I have the initial document that was sent out. What was the date in was a 2021? Yeah. Yeah. The SNN and then the one that the latest one in August. And so with where would you like to start with that? Whatever questions you have, we'll just go from there. You know, I guess I'll all preface it with that, you know, in 2017 is when I first brought the MPI strategy to market. And I had a compliance team. And then, you know, this is a very scary industry for me because I'm not from this industry. I started in 2014 with my own policy. I had this concept of how using the index participating loan to enhance a policy and then use it yet again to leverage for outside investments such as real estate or other things. And I'm like, OK, this concept's pretty cool. Took me four years to get to where, you know, it was approved kind of like to to be able to offer to a marketing standpoint to make sure I understood all the regulations and all the different things. And so I thought I was doing everything right. You know, I want to be some of those people. I want to be here for the next 50 years. Yeah. Same. And there's all the industries just so full of fly-by night and everyone just wants to get the most commission and all the different things. And it's like, no, no, this industry needs some people who A or with their clients today, tomorrow and all the way to the finish line. And that just doesn't really exist in this industry. And so I got a compliance team. I asked my questions. What can you do? And we even went directly to carrier sometimes. They're like, what are we allowed to say? What are we not allowed to say? And there's a lot of terms out there, you know, a lurb, a lurb. Everyone in their mom says lurb, life insurance retirement plan. So to me, that was like, okay, if everyone says lurb, then I should be able to promote this somewhat as a retirement strategy. And you know, this and that. And then, you know, there's the laser fund and there's infinite banking. There's be your own bank. And so, you know, it kind of looks at other people in the industry that are leaders having event in terms to help the public understand better what they're, you know, what they're getting and how to maximize it. And so, you know, I kind of create the term secure compound interest account and re-lock and things like that. And for the next four years, we're pushing it and pushing it. And you know, you talk about marketing and everything is going real well. And then one day in 2021, I know the letter says another insurance agent turned me in. It wasn't an insurance agent. It was a financial advisor. And that's what really bothered me is this financial advisor. They didn't even turn me in for what they said they turned me in. If you look at the original documents, he told the state of Washington that I stole $20 million from the public. Still have a regulatory or an insurance commissioner or whatever gets a letter that someone just stole $20 million. Of course, they're going to be like, fire, fire, we've got to go do something about this. And they come and they do a two hour deposition basically with me. I answer all my questions. I give them my 67 video series, which is kind of interesting. They're like, oh, you're not explaining to the public what you do. I made 67 videos on every question that's ever been asked to me ever. And an explanation on what it is where you find it in real life terms, et cetera, et cetera. And then it was just quiet for three years. And so it's kind of interesting to me that like, if this fraud and this like deceiving the public and all the other things goes on, why wouldn't you not like stop me sooner? Why didn't it take three years for you to finally show up one day? And you said, hey, we don't like you saying secure compounders count, re-lock. You say retirement plan. We say all that other stuff. But yeah, and so they told me, hey, Curtis, you know, you went too far. You're pushing these ideas and concepts further than any of the other insurance agent has ever tried to do with these, you know, renaming the index loan, renaming what an index universal life insurance policy is. You can't do that. And we're going to give you a $10,000 fine. And it's like, okay, then we will start over. I had to scrub every single video I've ever made ever. 4,000 videos had to be removed by YouTube channel, my TikTok channel, my Instagram. I mean, it was a three month process to the degree that we shut down all new cells for three months. I mean, it was a seven figure devastating punch in my gut. But I, I, I comply to me. My thing is compliance is important. And every agent who's listening, man, you've got to take this stuff serious. And, you know, saying things like life insurance or retirement plan might not be acceptable in some states and acceptable in other states. So now it's like this great vague area that you've got to be on your tiptoes all the time, making sure that you're, you're paying attention and staying super, super compliant. That's super important to me. Yeah, no, I think that very much summarizes well because obviously they talk about like the different things that they don't necessarily like. It's interesting to hear about the person that turned you in. And three years go by that's that's also very interesting. Maybe they were like watching. I don't know what, what they were doing within those three years. I guess, you know, agencies like this probably take their time. And so that's that's very interesting. And I think, yeah, the biggest, biggest takeaway is is more of a marketing. Um, marketing thing is is what we say. And I think that was part of the criticism. And I, I, I won't speak for anyone other than me. But I think there's been some people that have, you know, criticized your marketing by and saying the same thing of when they're like, hey, I'm shocked that people haven't, quote unquote, shut this down. It's not that you're like actually taking money. It's not like an actual scam that they're taking money. But it's like, hey, this is like going to create a spotlight. And then what you can see where some people say, it kind of ruins it for everybody because now it's like, but I look at it as a, now where it's really clear, like apparently they don't like even comparing this to a retirement income vehicle. Yeah. And which is interesting because that's a huge part of your pitch. I would, I would imagine is, hey, the reason we set this up the way that we set it up is maybe not for the first year. But it's for unoptimized or better income in the future. How, how is it? Have you, have you changed your opinions at all or how you talk about this or is, are you under the opinion that you did everything absolutely right? All of your concert, like everything that you dreamed up in 2017, working perfectly, you just are being attacked because of language. And it might be the same people that are jealous of your success. A little A little B, you know, obviously we have a compliance team and they said, hey, we think this is right because everyone does this and that. And people talk about supplemental income all the time. And comparing it to the 401K IRA is where it's super interesting on that where they go, hey, we don't want you comparing it. But yet there's carriers who have calculators that compare it. There are so many inflows that actually have side-by-side comparisons with 401K's and IRA's and stuff like that. And so I think I'm being picked on a little bit. You know, kind of set as an example like, hey, you go too far. We will do something to you. Look at this Curtis guy. He was like the top marketing guy and you, he's an example. And, and that's okay, you know, because a lot of my in the last three months or for three months, we kind of shut down. I said, okay, scrub everything. We need to start over. There is no secure compound news count. It is an indexed universal life insurance policy with features and benefits that can provide supplemental income. It can provide tax advantages. It can provide. And so now it's much more, hey, you have this contract. You have this policy and this policy when optimized has some really, really cool advantages. But you've got optimized it. I can't optimize it. No one can optimize it. But you're new to the individual when you understand how to max funded and how to potentially leverage it correctly and to understand what causes them Mac and what the, you know, the various things are that now you can get these features and benefits. And so it never, it was never really when I talked to Washington, I talked to these other regulatory agencies. It was never really about what I was saying. It was how I was saying it because I do the best I can. And when I say things like the exclusive MPI strategy, to me, that is accurate because I provide it. It's a trademarked, or not not even a trademark, a registered brand. Coca-Cola has a soda pop, right? And you want Coca-Cola. You got to go to Coca-Cola to get it. It is exclusive. But yet, Pepsi tries to copy him and RCT tries to copy him. And the various people try to have knockoffs or similar to or exactly saying they're trying to make it exactly the same. But yet, if you want Coca-Cola, you got to go directly to them. And so when I said some words like proprietary and exclusive and things like that, it came across as you can only do this if you come to me, which is more like, no, you can only get this service and this education and this, this, this support group, if you come to me because that's what I do. That's my profession is I help people understand about financial struggles and financial successes and different options you have. And so at the end, when I talk to even like the new compliance and all the different regulatory boards, because I mean, it's been a six-month process of daily communications and with lawyers and stuff like that. And it was like, okay, a lot of people say what you're saying, it's just how you say it. You can't say it so just absolute that MPI is the only place you can get because that's not true. And index universal life insurance policy has featured in BenFiz that everyone can participate in. You just offer a service that maximizes it, the best you can as a professional. And so my tone has gone down a lot. I know my eyes were open to, I've done a lot of research in last year on how to even go MPI 2.0. I know one of the things I got in trouble for is the IEWL 2.0. They're like, you can't say that. There's no 2.0. There's no new IEWL. And I like 2.0 just means innovative, right? Like they're just like taking it to the next level type thing. No more of that. But they're at an MPI 2.0. We'll talk about that a little bit later when you're going to MPI. Yeah, but I'm just talking about all of them. They don't have a problem with you still using MPI. Like they don't have a problem with someone still using the concept alert. Let's just say, because it sounds like that was essentially problematic. Loathe by don't know. I've not got clarification on lurps. Some people say yes, some people say no, it's an industry term. So I've stayed away from that. My shift has gone from retirement income to supplemental income because we are allowed to say supplemental income because that's what it can provide. And then when you say like, oh, it can provide tax-free supplemental income through the index loan feature. So you got to add these things. So anywhere is listening in, like you got to have these full sentences that explain where they come from because it's not tax-free. There's no such thing as tax-free income. There's tax-free income through a feature of a life insurance policy. When I first got into the space, I had a mentor. This is actually when I was still working at the bank. And he said, Caleb, the phrase that you will get you out of trouble a lot is when set up and use properly. And I've kind of been a little robot in that when set up and use properly. And there's been sometimes where it's super annoying, but it's the ultimate caveat because you're totally right. Life insurance, when not set up and not use properly, there's no taxed benefits to it, like period. It actually could put you in a worse position. But when set up and use properly, there's like what you said supplemental, there's features that can be beneficial. Was there a point? Did you want to fight this? Because it looks like you just agreed with everything that they said. Is that how much power these agencies have? Or was there a part of you that's like, you know what? I didn't do anything wrong. I'm going to fight this. There was a point where I have my people, right? And they're like, no, we are fighting this. We are fighting this to the end because there are, I almost just released my license in Washington saying, hey, I'm not doing business in Washington. If they're going to be that strict because we've had other encounters with Arizona and California and New Mexico and Michigan. And I talked to them, I explained what I'm doing. They're like, okay, sounds great. Keep educating the public. So I've gone tons of really positive feedback on the amount of education I provided to the industry, to the degree I made an illustration video. Here's what's kind of like kind of wild to me. I made an illustration video. All 40 pages read every single paragraph, basically verbatim and explained what it meant. And I thought it was the greatest video ever, like how deep and powerful is this video? They asked me to take it down. Why did the state of Washington ask you to take that? I don't know. Because I'm explaining from my point of view and maybe there are things in there that I, you know, maybe I said it to some degree that was more subjective than then actual objective law. Because the illustration, you know, is a contract when you sign it things like that. And so it just is strange to me that many other states and many other boards have congratulated me and pated me on the back for the amount of information explaining what a surrender charges, which almost no one does, or deep diving into what illustration is and how what caps are and how caps can be suppressed if this happens and how a cap is determined. And things that just aren't very explained by almost anyone. And I just wanted to be that guy who says, Hey, if you're going to come into the MPI strategy, you're going to at least have the opportunity of knowing every single thing that exists inside this policy. And then what you want to know, what you want to deep dive, you can do that. But you at least have the access to that. And all these different people are like, Oh, good job, good job. And then this one stage is just like, now we don't like that word, that word, that word. And unfortunately, every video I've ever made for eight years has those three words in it. And the devil's advocate, why didn't you just say, sorry, I can't because it's my understanding that you don't work a ton in New York. And so why didn't you just be like, Hey, I'm not, I'm going to make New York and Washington the states that I don't thrive in and do in all 48 states. Is there a reason why you're like, I'm going to scrub everything and rebuild? When you have one person on your radar, I don't know how many others are. And if I was not doing something to the law, to the, you know, to the T, I want to be an example that, Hey, guys, marketing is important, but your clients have to know what they're getting. And I thought I was doing a good job and people were telling that I was doing a good job. And if one state was saying, Hey, you took it too far or you're not quite hitting the mark on that, then pivot, it didn't really change my business too much. Okay. Yeah, most of my videos were outdated anyway. So it's like, Hey, you know, that's kind of exciting. I get to make all the videos over again. You know, if you've ever restarted a business, you're kind of like, Oh, that sucks. But hey, I get to do it right this time. You know, and have everything to the T. And so remaking videos and just being much more addressing the exactness of what is an IUL, how it works, what are the features and benefits and rebranding it to a path to financial freedom instead of a path to early retirement. You know, there's lots of benefits that because at the end of the day, that's what we really want for our clients that they feel comfortable, they feel confident, they feel secure, and they're on a path to something that excites them for a future. Is that tomorrow? Is it in 30 years from now? Is it in 50 years? We don't know. That's according to your savings levels. But we will least understand the opportunities you have available to you. And we're going to do our best to maximize those for you. And so we, when some is like, Hey, shouldn't you fight Washington? I'm like, you know, everyone's like, fight and fight and fight them. And then I called up my $950 an hour lawyer, insurance lawyer. And he goes, no, you're not going to win. There's no chance that you could ever win unless you had like a thousand clients class action lawsuit. And you've seen the state of Washington and you want to spend a million dollars. And you take this for the next 10 years of your life. And I'm like, no, no, no, I'll just, I will comply. I want to be a leader. I want to show people that you do it the right way. And if you do it the right way, you can build a long-term business. Is it, is it possible that they came down harder on you because you're of, do they, do they, do the state of Washington perceive the way that you help clients as being a little bit more aggressive using a safe asset like life insurance or did that not come up at all? It was just purely the how you were marketing. Yeah. And honestly, even in 2021 when we did our, our deposition or whatever, they were very like, nice to me. And they're like, wow, you have 67 videos. That's a lot. You know, and it's like four hours of content and two books and this. And now this other stuff like, oh, hey, good job, man. And then three years ago, buy so I just think like, oh, they thought that was cool. Like everyone, all the other places they go is cool. And they kind of dropped it. And then just one day it shows up. And it's just like, hey, past $10,000, fix these words and we'll release it. Yeah. Okay. And you know, I mean, good standings with them. I had good communication with them when we were this whole process. And I believe that they believe I'm thinking the right steps. And I think we're doing the right thing. Cool. Is there anything else that you want to say about the state of Washington and the obviously people can read for themselves? But I feel like it was very helpful hearing your perspective on things. Yeah. I mean, I try to help other agents in the industry. So if there are other agents that have concerns or they they want to know anything about my experience and what words they're currently using, feel free to reach out to me like, I share everything. And I would also just encourage people to read the documents because what you even said supplemental keyword, if people are using this as a, and bet like, but it turns not an investment. Try, don't sell as an investment. And I think there's problems when we use certain words. And we just need to do as an industry a more a better job with that. And so thank you. There's a place in here where it says Curtis says that an I use an investment plan. And I, you know, the, the, the A personality is like BS. Show me where I've ever used the word investment ever in my marketing, in my videos, ever, I don't use that word. That was in 2017. I said, you never, ever, ever use the word investment and life insurance. Those two don't, don't, they don't coexist. And I don't believe I've ever said that word. And they said, no, you said it. And I'm like, where? But I didn't, I didn't say where. I just say, okay, sorry. Let's move on. You know, type big. Your balance. Yeah. Never use the word investment. It is not an investment. It is a life insurance policy that brings some advantages. But yeah, investment, nah, we don't use that word. All right. So now let's go. I think we're good here. So, so that's, that's, that's that. Let's go to the criticisms of still MPI because it sounds like what we can talk about 2.0. It, it sounds like you've through this whole process. You've never wavered around the concepts. There's people like myself that still feel like it's very aggressive. And I think one of the things, it's one thing if you're talking to someone who's maybe accredited, not investment, you know, get what I'm saying, like people that have lots of money, it's one thing to be like, hey, we could do premium finance. But this is a way. And you could make the argument. And I actually know other people in the space that do something similar, but they're dealing with people that have a lot of money because whenever you use leverage, it's an amplifier. Amplifiers are great until they're not. If you can play a guitar and you amplify that great, you wouldn't want to amplify my guitar playing. And so the thought processes, what you are saying is not wrong. And even you like numbers, it's like, hey, if you can borrow it for and make six, do that infinity. Like that's not, that's not the problem. It's the, is that actually going to happen? Are we increasing risk? And then there's other things and this is it is a little bit ironic, but because it's like, hey, there's risk at the regulatory level, which you were an example of how you walk through that. But then there's also a risk of what happens if the insurance company sees this and gets cold feet and they're like, holy crap. Like then, then it's like it's out of your control. But now you have thousands of clients that are, and they may pull you. I know that you're probably in good standing with the insurance companies that you work with, but we both know people that have been canned and can't even service the clients that they worked with because the insurance company sees them as a walking liability. I know I'm saying a lot here, but those are the, it's, I'm not saying that what you're doing can't work. I'm just saying that over time, like those are some of the criticisms in place and I'm wondering, obviously, you're, you're less aggressive on the marketing now. But have you changed your mind on anything or have you, or would you just agree to disagree on what I'm saying versus what you're doing? Yeah. Are you want to jump into MPR? Do you want to do the your letter first? Seems like I'm into the MPI what I talked about. And then we can talk about the, but it's, it's probably very similar. A lot of the same, the letter that the attorney sent, probably a lot of the same things, you know, came up in that. So it could go all in one. But if you want to address the letter first, we can. What would you like to get? What would you like to get? Just the letter regarding Washington. Why, you know, people are like, Oh, why are you trying to silence everyone? And it has not done silence at all. Yeah. And so over the last eight years, I've had so many people make negative comments about me lie about me, whatever. And I just kind of ignored them for a while. And it just started compounding like crazy. Like you go Google Curtis Ray in the first 19 things were negative comments articles videos or something about me. And it's like, what is going on here? And so we came to a decision that anyone can have their own opinion. But if you say anything that is not accurate or is a lie or deceiving, that's there's no place for that in this industry. We can have a common ground to disagree and we can bring out facts and receipts and say, Hey, this is why I don't agree with you. But there are so many people are making stuff up just like straight on blatantly lying about me. You know, I stole 20 million dollars. You know, that one guy who does the get out of debt, you know, the big guy, I said that, you know, I take everyone's money and I just lose it immediately. And I just get 140% of commissions and I like all this stuff that is just so blatantly wrong. That we just came to a decision that, Hey, you can have an opinion. You can say whatever you want. But if you're going to lie about me, that's going to be shut down. Your situation is a little bit different. Obviously, your your your guess set a few things that aren't accurate. But there was nothing that crazy inside your little podcast besides because it was published. After I told Washington, I don't say ABCD and I don't do this, this, this. And then this thing comes on and it was talked about in present tense. Curtis says this. Curtis does this. Curtis has this. It's like dang, that could be seen as though I just told Washington, yeah, I'm doing it. And then I didn't do it. And the timing was just so often. So I'm talking to my lawyer and he's like, dude, this looks bad for you because they're talking as if you're currently doing something that was, and you know, our conversation was from two years ago. And two years ago, I said a whole lot of crazy, you know, not crazy things, but things that they deemed that, hey, you should not be saying this. And then two years later, I get this happened. It's like, Caleb, I need to take it down. And I don't, there's so many of them that my lawyer just handles it. He's just like, handle this, handle this. I don't even really get that involved. Just take care of it. Make sure you can sit taken down and the others use something invitation and like, I don't have any ill-will versus Caleb. I just we need to make sure that we're on a, we're not trying to screw each other when they're when we're both trying to just help people and and and get along. Hopefully. Do, um, based on the letter has, have you ever had to take anyone to court over defamation? Um, not yet. Most people are pretty responsible, meaning, or pretty, I don't think there's a whole lot of really bad people in this world, meaning I want to hurt you. Right. There are a few people that it may go there someday. I don't know. But right now, most people are like, hey, what you said is wrong. And this is why it's wrong. Hey, I didn't know that I got information. That's what I said. Can you take it down? Yeah, I'll take it down. What? Um, and I'm just, this is me alleging the person you may have referenced is Dave Ramsey, um, who I know have said, I believe have said things about you. Did they, did you send them letters and did it or was it and they took that what they said down? Okay. He said, although we believe we have the right to our own opinion and good spirit, we'll take it out. Okay. Um, so the, the next question I have is what, why don't you, um, why didn't you reach out either to me or other people and say, like, hey, you got these wrong. Can I either host you on my show or can I come back and like you just, you just felt like it would be easier. I know it wasn't personal. Um, believe it. There were some people as you can imagine getting a letter like this being a small potato I am. You could be like, oh, wow, like especially at the end, it's like that sounds like a threat to my family. Um, but like I actually don't take things personal at all. There's a couple people on our team that probably took it more personal than I did. Um, but for me, it's like I, I get it and now with more understanding of all the things that you're going through, it, it makes sense. But do you feel like that, that it can look bad if you're hiding behind letters versus like just trying to set the record straight using like supplying the man marketing, especially if you have an audience of 1.1 million on TikTok and I know that you have a smaller audience on YouTube, but thoughts, thoughts around that and you have to know that I'm not, you were never, I never went to bed ill will, um, and I was never upset and I really do like what I shared on the video was what I was feeling, but it wasn't, it wasn't one of those things where I felt like I didn't feel like you wanted to try to go to war, um, with me, just to be clear, I just have never said the letter like that. And so it was like, and that was not my intent at all. Like my intent was not to post a video or try to like, I didn't get special information that you even going through this Washington thing. And I wasn't, it was literally what I said in the videos is, and I did say in the video that this happened two years ago in the description, we had this time stamp as well, but I understand where if you don't see that or if you don't watch the intro that you could, you could perceive that you're talking in present time. I'm glad that I look a lot older and I think I think I think I'm better looking now. I was three years ago. I was like, man, I that's the glad way to work with us three years ago. I don't know. I don't understand that, but, um, but I just, I guess I'm saying a lot, but like anything that you want to say to that or, or is it just, are you going to continue to send letters? Is that just the business decision that you guys are making going through? Yeah, I mean, I have a hundred employees where giant business that runs very fast and very hard and there's things that I don't take care of. Um, it's like we're now an organization and when something comes up, that department takes care of it unfortunately. And, you know, there's some things that happen that I'm not always privy to that just kind of happen. We made a decision that with dozens and dozens and dozens, I can't be using my time reaching out to every single individual and trying to contact them. Do they contact me? But it's like, hey, when there's something that's foul, we feel as foul out of bounds. And there were a few things talking about the calculator and talking about the 4% loan and talking about a secure compounded discount and saying the word re-lock in your guys's podcast. And, you know, Rocky was saying some things that were like, oh, yeah, he says this and he does this. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, that's already been taken care of. I cannot have that out there that I'm still doing that stuff because then it just opens up a whole nother thing that it's like when something is remotely even out of bounds, it's like they just take care of it and, and you know, sometimes I'm like, ah, you know, you know, one came to me the other day. What should we do with that? It's like, there's nothing in there. Like, yeah, not not not not wearing my time, you know, top thing. But it just it seems like an easier route for me because it's it's a system that can be duplicated. There's no, there's no subjectivity to it. If there's some of those out of bounds, hey, please take it down. And if you don't, we're going to we're going to have to talk about this. Yeah. I think from a PR standpoint, you'll have to, I think majority of time, you'll send letters and people will comply. And I think in the end, we've seen this with like coffee zela on Logan Paul. We've seen this with Brett Farve and Pat McAfee. It's it can unfortunately make you look worse because it's it and it gets people to maybe rally behind and, you know, and again, like, I don't have nearly the platforms that they that they have. But I understand the answer that I wonder, I've made videos about Dave Ramsey. I'm not here trying to defame anybody. But you think they're different because they're their opinions or because I always think like, how can you defame someone who has such a big public on it? It's one thing if you are if you are a nobody marketing wise. But like, you're out there. Is that and I know you're not a lawyer, but I feel like you get to a point where people just have to know that like people are going to disagree. It's like Kamala Harris or Donald Trump. I can't imagine can send defamation lawsuits out of all the people that may or may not be law and like, there's people that are probably intentionally lying about these individuals trying to tank them. I are they sending a bunch of letters or is there like, and again, I know I'm asking maybe I should be asking your attorney there, but it's just it's just questions that I would just be interested to see like how this will age. And we'll see maybe I'll change my stance. But at this point, my hope is to be able to set the record straight or if people know how I stand, if they see a video that might disparage my name for them to be like, that's not consistent with with what we've been hearing. I understand that the timing is bad because now all your videos are taken down. And so my hope is going forward that you can fight back and let the market decide, but I'm not your attorney. So we can. Yeah. And the only things that are the only things we really address are out of bounds. He stills money. That is not even possible because you know, we don't take premium. I've never touched someone's money. I have no access or money. So when people start using things that are actually illegal, like when they say things openly, he's going to go to jail. He stills people's money. It's like, Hey, dude, you're you're going now too far. Like if you say, Hey, MPI may not work or MPI is too risky. Hey, that's your opinion. You have all the right to that. But when you start saying objective, actual stating things as fact, then it's like, yeah, that's fair. Defend sometimes offence is like, Hey, no, no, no, no, no, we got to play on the same level. Have fair competition. That's on looking for. Okay. Okay. So then the last thing is MPI kind of set the stage from a standpoint of, you know, I still personally have not changed my like, I actually like you as an individual. I have not changed my opinion and I wouldn't want to tie my way again to you. I know Rocky calls it hyper funding. You might agree or disagree with that way of talking about it. But I just still feel like it's everything from regulatory to working with your with the insurance company to will it actually happen to it's one thing if we're we're looking at people that have a lot of money. Like there's companies that do premium finance, but you need to be worth 10 to 15 million dollars to do that. The reason is liability. But then it's when you're dealing with leverage, you're dealing with it's again, I used to idea of an amplifier. It can be amazing until it's not. And so all that to say, what's your response to all that? That's still the criticism. But I do not think that you're trying to like openly do this nefariously. I hopefully you never got that from my time with Rocky or my two conversations with you. But I want to be able to call out people and I call out people in whole life insurance space because I think that in every space, including the one like my colleagues and friends that people are doing things that are not going to age well. And I kind of feel like MPI is one of those things that 20 years from now will sound really, really good on paper, but is actually not going to work out the way that you think it is. Yeah, and I always find it really interesting when these industry leaders, you know, you've had some on your podcast and there's other people. And they always preface their opinion, their professional opinion about MPI with this. And in your podcast, it was said, David McNight is a great dude. I talked to him all the time said this. They always say, I don't exactly know how it works, but it won't work. And it is so strange to me. The moment they say, I don't exactly know. I think he's doing this. I think he's doing that. But I will give you a definitive answer. It will not work. And I'm like, that is so amateur. That is almost unethical that you even comment on something that will literally take you a five minute phone call. It's so easy to find me. Anyone can message me. I answer all my own DMs. I answer all my own text messages. My emails everywhere. My phone numbers everywhere. Anyone has access to me. And I've never withhold withheld any information on how MPI works. And these very powerful individuals say the same thing every time. I don't exactly know how it works. But I know it won't work. What? Why anyone accepts that as a source of knowledge is beyond me? Because the moment I hear someone say that in any industry, whether it's health or wealth or politics, I don't exactly know, but I'll give you my opinion. It's like, shut up. I'm not even going to listen to you now because you haven't even taken your own time to be able to be a reputable, credible source of knowledge, to be able to comment on something. Because I'm not going to comment on anything that I don't feel that I at least have a very solid understanding of how it works. And so when they say, oh, it's not going to work, my response or my kind of like, the math says it will work. And I know math is just one thing. You say on paper, it's going to look good. We've got, we've got a lot of years of data now. I started my own policy in 2014. So I now have going on my 11th year of understanding how this works, when it works, why it works, when to do it, how to make an 11 year, someone might say, oh, that's still not long enough. Well, then you can back data back to 1997 when the first I well launched the S&P 500 is still the S&P 500. The crediting system is still the crediting system. But the I well itself, this is where it gets pretty, you know, I want to preface this by what I'm about to say is strictly my opinion. You get there's nothing about this that is like, I don't want to scare anyone. I don't have nothing. But I believe the I well by itself is a ticking time bomb. I am scared to death for the industry itself. Whole life is is a little bit worse than even the I well itself. And that is this notion that but Curtis, what if your credits can't outperform the loan rate? Everyone says that. That is the only critique is what if your annual credits on average cannot outperform the loan rate? Then what's going to happen to every IU on whole life policy in the world that uses the loan feature for anything? And anyone who knows anything about compound interest and compound decay, the moment you start receiving negative interest in a negative aspect, it is compounding even faster than the positive. It is exponentially worse when there's this negative thing that goes upon it. And so when you are taking out a six or seven percent loan in 20 or 25 years from now and your whole life policy at year 25 is netting 3.8 because 3.8 to 4 is all it's ever really going to do after the cost of insurance. Every time you try to take supplemental income from that or every time you try to touch it for any reason at all, you have created a negative spread. IU Ls right now are slightly different because they're one of the unique circumstances where currently it is creating a positive spread at least historically. Right now it has historically outperformed its loan rate. And we can historically get one and a half to two and a half to three depending up to five. If you're getting a 10 cap and it's costing you five, then you're making up to five. And it's creating this positive arbitrage spread. And that can basically only happen from every policy I've ever seen inside of a properly designed, correctly used or whatever you said, indexed universal life insurance policy. And so this idea that when some people say, well, what if this happens? Well, if that happens, your IU will screw too. Every IU on the market screwed. Well, I think that I'm going to do. So let's all use whole life as an example because it's just my world is one of the biggest critiques I have is in the infinite banking space is when people say that you get arbitrage. You don't get arbitrage. They don't. And that's people misspeak. So I'll just use your numbers. If over a long period of time, with today's interest rate, let's say you get an internal rate or a turn of 4%. So that's after all, like that's after everything 4%. And let's say borrowing is at 5%. And so or 6%. Okay, whatever, whatever we want to use. And you could say like that falls apart. Well, from a cash on cash standpoint, if all we care is the is the what you're earning and the arbitrage, you're 100% right. But you also are getting other benefits with insurance. And I'll take IUL for example. So why would insurance whole life and index universal universal life when structured and utilized properly still be an asset is because insurance is first and foremost protection vehicle. And there's other benefits that way outperform and it would have to outperform a 6% cost. Otherwise, I'm very hypocritical. If I why would I be taking more. So I agree and disagree with you at the same time because I don't we I don't think people should look at insurance period as an income vehicle. That's my opinion. And so we're not we're never when we're looking at whole life looking at it taking out income. The fact that you can do that as a supplement is great. But if people don't understand the actual value that insurance gives you, that's then I 100% agree. If this I've said this many times publicly, if you're all you look at is arbitrage, then it doesn't make sense. Hence why index universal life is something that you prefer or is the only thing to use because you couldn't do this in whole life. It just wouldn't work. And so index universal life the way that it's currently set up allows you to be able to do this. But I look at this as you're increasing way more potential risk because you're totally right. If you had a simple IUL and you and it and you're earning less than you're making, it doesn't fall apart. It just doesn't you don't get to utilize it maybe as much as you wanted, but it doesn't fall apart. It potentially falls apart if everything is built around the loan and earning feature. So you can agree that you can disagree with that. But that's like my rebuttal to to that. Yeah. And so what I'm saying is IULs are more often pushed heavily on retirement income. That is what is one thing to put push. And so it's not so much the arbitrage spread. It's not losing money. So for example, if your internal rate of return is 4% and your cost is five or six or whatever and you start pulling income from it, whatever that income is, that amount of money that you're leveraging against is now losing one or two percent. And we can go back to that. That would be less. What you were illustrating today would be less if that actually happened like. And but then it begins to compound because say you took out 50 grand year one and you're losing one or two percent. Okay, you lost a couple hundred bucks. No big deal. Year two, you now have a balance inside your policy of a hundred thousand dollars losing one or two percent. Okay, now it's two thousand dollars on top of the income you just lost two thousand dollars. Then the next year it's one fifty. Now it's four thousand, you know, and this this exponential of the K happens if the I will itself cannot outperform the law. And so when when someone comes onto your podcast and says Curtis sells the absolute most garbage I will there is or trash I will, I don't know the exact words that he says that that was an interesting statement because the index universal life insurance policy that I prefer has been ranked number one in the world for three consecutive years through fords and investopedia for the absolute lowest expenses in the industry. And for the consistency and what is so important about I well said even the whole life has this struggle but I don't I don't get too much into whole life is caps. I believe an index universal life insurance policy needs three things to be able to be viable long term. And without these three things, oh, it just scares me from my own industry because there's so many sales gimmicky stuff out there. There's so many like look at our caps. We have uncaps or we have 15% caps are today. And then what happens tomorrow and the biggest problem with this industry is the sales bait and switch of new business and enforce business or not. We're really dirty. I think we both agree. Which is so dirty and it's almost every single carrier that I've seen. There is a select queue that have committed that their new business enforce business that their new sales business and enforce business is the same cap. And I believe that if you're not with a company that is committed to having enforce business and new business the same cap, then they're already on this path of like we have the control, you know, type thing. And so when I look at that, that to me is the most important thing. You have lowest expenses because expense are so important. There are IUOs out there. There are three or four times more expensive three or four times than the ones I use. The low rate has to have a maximum ceiling on it. And that's my problem with a lot of the whole life contracts I've come across is they don't have maximum ceiling. They have 1% above, you know, Moody's bond rate or whatever, you know, there's just there's variables in them. A lot of insurance companies have now come out with maximum guaranteed. It will not exceed five, will not exceed six. Somewhere in that's kind of the norm in the industry right now. And the third one is you have to be with an IUO where the new business and old business has a same cap commitment because that will not allow them to bait and switch. That will not allow them to do the things that this industry unfortunately has done. I mean, I have a policy from 2014 that I have and you know, bought it at 12%. It's currently I think at 725, maybe 675. I can't remember. I don't even look at it now. It's complete. I can't even promote it. I can't talk about it. I can't even talk about that carrier anymore. Even though they come to me and say, of course, our new series 27 version of our IUO has a 13.5% cap. I'm like, you use my phone number. Yeah. Like literally, it would be disgusting for me to even offer this to my client knowing what you guys do five years down the road. I'm not going to participate in that. I appreciate so in summary, it's lowest expenses, capital on rate, and then the cap needs to be the same with new business as in you know, older business, in forced business. So the yeah, I agree with what you're saying. I think the pushback on that is you can still play levers just like whole life carriers can play it. I always laugh on the direct for non direct. It's like, all right, the lever is the dividend. And here, if this insurance company wants to it needs like needs to change something, they're just going to lower the cap. Like that's so you could say the loan rate is the is like solid. That's great. But you can just lower the cap. It would be one thing if you got into a contract that they are guaranteeing a certain cap never to decrease guaranteeing an expense ratio never decrease. And then guaranteeing a loan rate, if those all three things are not guaranteed, there are things that you can play with and hence why you have to work with the company that you feel like, hey, they're making the right decisions long term. What makes you feel like this insurance company 25 years from now and all there's going to be a lots of new leadership. There's going to be lots of different things. What makes you think that they're not going to change because there's been whole life insurance companies out there that are more plain vanilla than the company that you works that have literally got sold to PE. And so it's like, what makes you actually feel like that that's going to be different because that's like probably the biggest quote unquote risk is something something that is the risk of everything is the index universal life insurance cap. And so the the the short answer to that is if you were to have a same cap for new business and existing business and you suppress it, your new business, you've just screwed your new business. And so that gives them an incentive to be competitive in the market. The goal is to sell as many policies you can and be as competitive as possible. So if you can have that commitment and they stick to that commitment, then now you have a fair market that that should be the goal and they've been around for a long time. And you know, everyone goes, well, what if they take the insurance cost and hit it their max levels? Well, why haven't they for 114 years? Why haven't they? Because they could have done that in the 80s and when ever. They weren't doing IUL for 100 plus years. They were doing the cost in the shirt that's still the cost in shirt. How many years do you know this this company? How long have they had an IUL product that you use? Yeah, and there's there's a few really, really good companies out there. So I try not to be exclusive with one. But the most IULs that are currently in the market are between 2014 and 2016 is where. So they're about 10 years now. Somewhere between eight and 10 years in the market. Which is hence the and to be fair, you should also agree with me like that is if we're doing a pros and cons that for sure is on the con. You know, if we were being and I'm playing double zavica with myself whole life less sexy. Potential pro is there maybe is greater track record. Now you could be like, yeah, that track record is why you wouldn't want to do a whole life to begin with. We can agree disagree in there's a but like for me, it's like, yeah, we will see what like, I mean, we'll 50 years from now. I learned what I wanted to do business 50 years from now. Yeah, what I really enjoy about the companies I'm currently working with is I bring to them things that potentially people have not thought of yet. Like what happens when you're lending out a bunch of money for supplemental income or for the MPI strategy or things like that and your your your general fund has a balance towards the index loan versus all in triple acorpore bonds and things like that. What happens then? And what happens when the caps and what happens when more people are dying because, you know, there's things that I think about because this is the strategy I personally use on my own money and I want to go all in on protecting me, my family, my future, my clients, every person listens to me and trusts me and believes in me and what I really enjoy when I work with a few select carriers that I'm working with now is that it's like, I talk to them and we collaborate, collaborate like, hey, this is a problem. We've got to find a solution and you said something about how do we fix a cap? There's a way to do that. And so I tell them I go, hey, we need to come up with a solution. I think I have the solution already. Here is how we fix a 10% cap because the strategy if we can get a 10% cap locked in and then it's only an upside from 10, even about 9.25 is kind of the point where you go a little below 9.25 I.E.Os are kind of like, eh, but 9.25 and above then there, this arbitrage spread can happen. They're long term viable, et cetera, et cetera. So how do we guarantee a 9.5 cap or a 10 cap or whatever? Are there ways to do that? And those are things we're currently working on, things that I think about every single day, I think mathematics, you know, the mathematics actually work on them. Now how do you implement it and make sure that, you know, the actuaries go through it and the actuaries play through and say, yeah, how do we not think of this? That's what's funny is often I bring them solutions to table and the question that their comment is always, huh? And you're and you're big enough where they answer your phone call. Yes, it's one thing. I'm not that big, but I'm big enough where these insurance companies answer my phone calls. I can only imagine. Yeah, you're now, now that I have 10 years into this and I've seen, you know, some markets, some down markets and all the different things and, you know, the 2021 bonds crisis, 2021, 2022 bonds crisis. That was devastating to insurance in general. Whole life, IE wells, everyone. When bonds dropped all the way down to two and a half, two, 1.5, depending on which bonds were out there, that was really, really scary for a lot of people, a lot of carriers. They suppressed the caps down to 8, 7, 5, 9, 2, 5, whatever. The companies that I'm working with, they stayed solid. They say, we are not going below 10%. We are not going below 10% no matter what happens and they did it. Yeah, but if they had to, they would have to. You would agree that you'd rather them drop the cap than just like go and solve it. Kind of deal. Obviously. Yeah, so let me do two other things and we can keep talking. I really, again, appreciate this. Hopefully you watching appreciate this conversation. Again, thank you for coming back coming on. So, so number one, I don't like, I don't necessarily do it internal leverage at all in life insurance. And one of my pushbacks is, yeah, what if insurance company A underperforms? Well, you can 1035 this into a different insurance company. And so it gives you options. It makes people, I love the free market. You could 1035 into an IUL. You could 1035 an IUL into a whole life. There's less carriers that will 1035 with a crazy loan. And so what is your backup plan if one of these insurance companies doesn't work and you're now you have a client who's 15 years into this and they got lots of outstanding loan internal loans. That's that would be like that. I guess that's my question is like, what is like, what is the exit plan if one of these companies doesn't, doesn't work out? Because that's the problem with leverage. It's all great until it's not my hope for you and everyone that works with you is that this thing works. But if it doesn't, people should know that there's options, but based on their decisions that they make, there's some insurance companies that will not accept a 1035 with a loan, which seems like it would be problematic in your in your case scenario. Yeah, I've actually never heard that ever because I talked to insurance companies about the loan often what happens when a policy surrenders, what happens when a policy 1035s, you know, I work with a handful of carriers. I don't work with a ton of them. And I've that's never been brought up by a carrier to me that accepting a policy because say there were say there were 500,000 dollars inside of a policy account value and 200,000 is cash value and 300,000 is the the leveraged value. A 1035 only touches the 200,000. The carrier takes back their 300,000, the 200,000 of actual remaining cash value less whatever surrender charges may or may not exist would roll over into the 1035. So to this point, I've never had that comment and be addressed with me. I've never heard of a carrier said that they won't take it because all they care about is the remaining internal cash value that is liquid after any levers is inside of it. And after the surrender charge, what is the net? They would essentially take the net surrender cash value. That's what you can 1035. Yes. Okay. Do you have any clients right now? I mean, you've been doing this for 10 years. Do you have clients that are actually taking income? Or is it still in the because I would imagine that you're probably you're making a lot of money. You're probably not taking income from your policies. But how how is that like is because again, we're 10 years in. How how is the experience ban? And you you can give your answer. Well, however you want. I can't fact check this. So I'm hoping that you give it with the best. Yeah. I mean, I have probably I would think 10 clients maybe that use it for income currently because the only way, you know, our first policy ever provided to the public was 2018. Yeah. So seven years into the only way you get income in seven years. If you stuffed hundreds of thousands of dollars into it. And then now taking a supplement income, that's not that many policies out there. But there are a few people out there who, you know, bought in early 2018, 2019, 2020 had a certain amount of liquid assets, disposable income. And they just use it for a supplemental income option for them. And so it's been it's been a little bit. Um, what's the right word? Insurance companies are not set up for regular income distribution. That was my next question. I it's everything that we're doing is a new thing to them. Whether it's no internal leverage, whether I need consistent income once a month, how do you distribute it? And so the process is right now. I'm really excited about like I told you why I have so much confidence what we're doing is because we survived the Armageddon of the bonds crisis in 2021, 2022 and never went below 10. So there's no expectation. Why would you ever need to go below 10 if you survive that? And too, when internal leverage that we did with the MPI strategy, that was all a manual process for the first two, three, four years. And now it's an automated process. And then the loan to get supplemental income out of it right now, it's a it's a it's a manual process. We once a month for some of our clients are like $6,000, $6,000. And now it's like, Hey, hey, we're now, you know, we're we're at this point and the 10's going to go to 20 and the 20's going to go to 50 and 100. We need to start preparing now. And yeah, they're open to it. It's like, okay, yeah. So we don't need to do this. It's got this problem with, you know, we got to switch systems. We've got the the curing we got it, you know, always have an excuse why it's going to take three to six months. Yeah, see, but everything we're we're in front of mine because one of the great things about an MPI strategy that I believe is a big problem with our industry in general is what I call orphan hood. And that is you sell a policy and you literally never have to talk to that client again. Why wouldn't you already made what you're going to make on it? Maybe they call you, make you maybe you do a review where an MPI strategy is kind of unique in the fact that we want to stay inside and mind with them. We are constantly reminding them we do webinars once a month. We do a client webinar twice a year where it's only available for clients. We do annual reviews with them. I show credits how credits work, et cetera, et cetera. And we have a whole team. I got nine or 10 employees that are called the client. Don't even know it's called. It's an acronym, but they live little agnames on it, but it's just a place that a client can call and ask questions, change their beneficiary, change their address, do this and that. And so it allows for a lot more consistency of you have a strategy and we're here for you for a long term. I love the fact that you invest in your team. And for that we we we have the same. We have three people that are in client success and that their whole purpose is like once someone is onboarded, how do we serve? Because it's like we don't want them calling the insurance company. We're never. The insurance companies, again, are not necessarily designed. Like we talk about some of these features, but the insurance companies I think make it because they have to not because they want to sometimes and the retirement income, I can't say that, but you can keep it in just the supplemental income that someone could get from their insurance policy. It's not it's not like an annuity and they're not necessarily set up to. So it's just interesting to me where it's like I will be interesting to see how insurance companies innovate or how they'll might come down and say, Hey, we don't want people selling insurance this way. And we'll see how things shake out. A beautiful thing is there's free market and information's easier to get now than ever. And with with AI as scary as it could be, I'm really excited because I think it will continue to give information and access to more people. So Curtis, is there anything else that you want to say? Hopefully you felt like this was a fair conversation. And the floor is yours as we as we can land the plane. And I can answer any questions if you want. I know you've been answering the questions, but consider yourself. You're always welcome on the better well show. And so if there's anything that I say or if there's any updates that you want to be able to share your you. I definitely want to share the vision of what I have for the public, even for you, for whoever I feel I have a story and a message that is really powerful. And that is if you can protect your money first and make it your bedrock your foundation that you know that you've got some security built into it with a growth potential. Whether that be whole life or whether that be an index universal life or whether it be various things. There's very strategies out there that can can be the foundation of your thing. You have a lot of options available to you from that point on. And so I told you that I'm going to share something clients and prospects seem to love this when I do this. I never did this before until recently. And I started doing it and people are just like, Oh, that is awesome. I appreciate you sharing that. And so what I like to do with your permission, obviously, is show an MPI strategy in real time. Okay. And what it looks like and how I've been able to do it because I believe my message and what I've been able to do in the last 10 years is a foundation for so many people to have financial freedom. So many people to have opportunities that they never even existed. I know that you said, well, leveraging should only, you know, maybe potentially only be for rich people. And I am the complete. Yeah, I didn't say that from that standpoint, but I get everything everyone should have access to leverage. Yeah, inside of insurance, it's typically only available to those who have a lot of money and stuff like that. And when you understand it as a as a money game or an opportunity and you understand the rules of the game, things change for you. And they changed for me in the last couple of years. I believe that the indexed universal life insurance policy is really solid. It's going to make you historically. And I believe in the future six to seven percent on average. That's kind of where the data is. The data shows that. And then where it's trending should be relatively similar. Okay, we're good there. That's a good solid whole life does five or six. So you know, they're both kind of similar in that aspect. But then when you understand the opportunity available to you, it's it's really powerful. So I'm going to open up my screen. I'm going to show it. I don't do this very often, but I did feel it was important because you had questions about my message and how it's involved over the last year. And what I believe in. Yep. And before you share your screen, we agree on freed up money, say foundation, increase optionality. We agree. I think we potentially disagree on how we go from there, but we agree with that message. Just like I agree with Componinterest. That's just math. It's so yeah, you can do your screen and lighten us, Curtis. Okay. So I've got my policy right here. This is my actual policy and it's big. There are a number of many policies, index universal life insurance policies that have this type of money in them. And what's awesome about an MPI strategy and how we use the index universal life insurance policy is the ability to accelerate, increase, modify, enhance a single policy. So there's no need. I talked to people of whole life contracts and even IUL contracts, they've got five, they've got 10, they've got 15 different policies because every time they make more money or an investment pays out or whatever else, they buy a new policy because they want more life insurance of that. And that's not needed inside of this type of strategy because of the features and benefits of existence side this policy where I started policy a thousand dollars month. That's where I started. It's like, and I thought that was a ton of money, right? Like I'm saving a thousand dollars a month. That is a lot of money. And then I'm making a little bit more money. Life is good. I bump it up to $6,000 a month. The same policy, adjusting that policy. Then I bumped it up to $10,000 a month. And now I've got an ad tale. What's that? $30,000 a month. You know, that's what I do. $30,000 a month. I mean, it is a ton of money going into this policy. But this is where it gets exciting for me is I believe in the index strategy. I believe in them wholeheartedly every data point leans my direction. Everyone says, well, what if it doesn't work? Well, the data leans at least leans my direction that it should work. So if I have $4.288 million of account value in my policy. And this year is going to be a 10 year. Last year was a 10 year. A year before that was a 10. The year before that was a zero. The year before that was a 10. So four out of last five years have been tens, obviously some years or zero, some years or tens and whatever else. But this policy will make $428,000 of gross interest less cost of insurance, less cost of the loan, et cetera, et cetera. Okay. So I've got a good solid foundation of building money up to 10% per year, 0% floor. Then I have the match strategy inside here. That's where an index loan can be used as additional not in lieu of. And that's where hyper funding and the MPI strategy I think are different. And a lot of people get scared when they hear that term from people who are trying to scare is like watch out, watch out hyper funding historically has been in lieu of like, I don't want to make any more payments. I'm going to take a loan and I'm going to fund it. And all of a sudden you have a five to one 10 to one 20 to one leverage ratio in five years because you're putting so much leverage in there and you're not putting any new money in it. And I don't believe in that at all. That is what makes us so scary and so risky is when you're only using leverage. And it's not like a ratio that is okay, they're both growing together so that if a zero year happens, it's a ledger note. That's all it is. And then it rebounds and things like that. So if you see there, I have outstanding loan of $2.478 million. On that two point, we'll just round up to 2.5 million. I believe that the moment I have cash value above a certain amount, it could be 50,000, 100,000, 500,000 million, depending on what type of investment opportunities you want to participate in. I came to discover a couple years ago that he who has the liquidity writes the rules of the equation. I write the rules. And so just in May of this year, someone comes to me and says, hey, Curtis, I heard you're liquid. You know, I talk about it. I'm not scared to talk about it. And I had three, my available cash value at the time was somewhere around $3 million. And I have like seven or eight hundred thousand dollars of the match strategy, the internal leverage inside my policy. So I was very healthy. You know, down market happens. I owe $35,000 of interest, but I have $3 million of cash value. It was nothing. It didn't mean anything to me. But he goes, I need a 750,000 dollar loan to finish a project in New Mexico. And I've done a bunch of other projects that have guarantees, first positions, collateralization, you know, I don't do anything without some type of recourse of something where to go south. I don't care how good it is. I don't care how powerful it is. If I don't have recourse of something go south, I do not participate in it. No matter how good the terms seem, I need something to protect me. And so he comes to me and he goes, I never done an investment like this before. He goes and he goes, I need seven hundred and fifty thousand and I'll get it, or sorry, eight hundred thousand and I'll give a 75% rate of return. I've never done an investment with a 75% rate of return. And I go, what's my guarantee on it? He goes, there are no guarantees. It's a 75% rate of return. But the project is pre sold. It's on a golf course. It's already under construction. It's got permits and it's broken ground. It's a secure to come possibly be inside a real estate without being first positioned. And I go, oh, that sounds really awesome. It's like you want to do the deal? I go, no. Yeah, I wouldn't do it either. Why not? And I go, because I don't have recourse. And he goes, okay, I'll go find someone else. I'm like, okay, cool. Awesome. Comes back to me the next day. Curtis, what do you want? I go, I want position somewhere. What do you have? Well, my house is worth X. I got a business that has this much assets in it and worth this. Okay, sign those over to me and tell you to pay me back. I'm not going to do that. Okay. Then you don't get my money. Yeah. Yeah. If you believe in your project, you should have no problems hanging over because there's no, you're saying it's basically riskless. So why are you so scared to give me a guarantee? If you believe it's that secure and he goes, Curtis, you're right. My project is solid. I will do that. Signs over personal guarantee. So you need 75% or did he negotiate down? Well, I didn't ask for more. He didn't, he didn't negotiate down. And I have a 75% rate of return with full collateralization, $14 million of the collateralization on $800.000 So I felt very secure in this and doing it. And I'm telling everyone like, dude, this was crazy. Most of my investments that are on assets, first positions, collateralized are 18% to 24%, which if you can get that and you're getting a 5% loan, hey, you're making pretty much a secure of investment opportunities you can do while having still your money inside the index strategy, hopefully making 10% this year or the worst case, your paying 5% on an investment that you can make 24% on or 18 with position. So okay, you got that. Then this month, in September, so last month, someone comes to me and says, we need a bridge loan to finish up a hospital. The hospital is not a hospital. It's going to take in kids who have been abused or human traffic then government contracts and this and this and this and this and this. And we'll give a 100% rate of return because we only need it for six months. It's just the bridge loan and I go, what are the guarantees? 100% rate of return. And so my message to people now is if you can be super disciplined and it may take two years and it may take five years and it may take seven years and you have cash value of 50,000, 100,000, 200,000, 500,000 and all of a sudden you will discover that you have so many opportunities in front of you that can make you 24%, 50%, even up to 100% and you have the opportunity of literally demanding what the terms of the contracts say because they need your money. You don't need them. They need your money and don't give no matter what. And so pardon the MPI strategy and what we're expanding is the MPI investment team that goes out and searches for these investment opportunities. We negotiate those terms and the collateral lozation and the first position and then we bring it to the MPI client saying, hey, if you don't feel confident just putting it right back inside the insurance contract, we think you should do both. But if you don't, we're going to go, I'm going to do it and I tell my clients I go, you will never do anything. I haven't put my own money into that. I haven't already given my kind of, I've done it. I've reviewed it. I've negotiated the terms of what I feel comfortable with. You still need to feel comfortable with it. You don't need to do your due diligence. But when you have that, a secure IUL with a 0% floor and your worst case scenario on that leverage is a 5%, which is below fair market value at the banking system right now and you're potentially making up to 10% and we can go get first position or collateral lozation or promise our notes on 18 24 50 75 up to 100% and I've done this now for since February of 2000 to 2019 and I have about 3 million of my own money and about 1.3 million of actual growth in my policy. Man, it is powerful rinse and repeat. And in this year alone, after this, you know, that investment of 75% and the investment of 100% hopefully I don't got to go the recourse option right because that's always a risk. You know, that's why you get the collateralization and promise her notes. This policy by itself and internal workings and how we promote it is going to make close to two million dollars of interest. That 4.2 million next year is going to say 6.3 million and my available cash value is going to be up in the 5 million range. Well, you're you're you're taking the external return and internal return and matching it together. Correct. Yes, when you have that it's a feature and benefit of doing what I've done the steps of save life insurance, maximize the match, go find selective secure collateralized investments and rinse and repeat and don't go do anything that can lose you principal value. Yeah, I golden rule and Nelson, I mean Nelson wrote this years ago and he said the golden rules, those who have the gold make the rules and I think the psychology of money if you've read that book talk about the rate of return on on zero and that the exact same thing is like what is the return on having liquidity and I get made fun of all the time when people know my financial situations. I'm very liquid but it allows me to run a better business. It allows me to take advantage of opportunities. I also am we that I mean that's powerful stories and so I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah, I think the only difference is I'm putting my money into cash value life insurance and then looking for opportunities and you're doing the whatever you said this what do you call it the matching. Yeah, so it's the cash value life insurance then we do the match which is the index loan as increased contributions. Mine plus there. I would do that if you had an opportunity like if I had an opportunity to earn 50 why would I why would I do the the map is it just a part is it just a diversification for you because why wouldn't you just put everything into the 50. Because the match doesn't affect your liquidity that's what's powerful. You do the match and limit it like why don't you just do the match to the you have a mech limit. So you increase your mech limit according to why you can do with your own savings and what is available in the match but what's powerful about the match is that you can increase a mech limit on it maximize additional money going in and historically that has made us positive interest long term and it doesn't affect your liquidity. So I now can do the growth of the index universal life insurance potential the growth of the match potential and the third lever and that is the investment potential. So now you're 10 plus five plus whatever of your maximum potential and by doing that you know the psychology of money had such a powerful thing in there it says seven or 97% of all financial investors and financial advisors don't even invest their own money where their term telling their clients to invest money and so one powerful thing I like to tell people is I put my money where my mouth is I do exactly what I tell people to do I do not hide it you can see I'm all in on this because the math verifies it the companies I work with are strong and they give me the commitments that we talked about earlier the loan rate is below fair market value and then it allows me to have a ton of liquidity and like you said he who has the gold writes the rules. We agree on some of the principles obviously we we don't always agree on the strategy but that's no good. Yeah but I will say this is I'm saying this out of love I'd be very very careful with the investment stuff I have very good friends that are not doing this right now because they you're now opening yourself up to another regulatory arm and so I'm sure you have it's you have your attorneys and lawyers but I have I also get approached by this stuff I do some things privately we are still trying to figure out how to make this available to our community but every every way that I go is it's like you look at the pros and cons and um fits I'm sure I'm sure you can that wherever there's a plus there's going to be a probably a regulatory arm or people coming after very very familiar with that you know the licensing you have to have to be able to do this the the disclaimer is God the disclosio have to have the I mean it is a big big deal that's why I haven't launched yet I only do my own stuff I'm leading the way I kind of just a little bit about me I do something I play it out for the next two or three years before I start talking about it right because it's important to me that I understand how the game is played what are the risks involved I'm willing to put my own self it at harm's way to make sure because there have been some things that's like I do it not going to sell that to anyone because that is just a headache if the nightmare um luckily that you know the only recourse I've ever had to actually do which wasn't really you know what when people you know and I don't want to be the dead horse here but someone came to me a family member and said hey I need $10,000 because I can't remember was I'm gonna lose my house or whatever can you please lend it to me because you're you're the rich cousin and and you could obviously have money and who cares about you know yeah you know how family members are and he goes I need $10,000 and I'm like okay what kind of assets do you own and he's like but I'm family I'm like yeah exactly that's more reason why yeah I need because I need ideas no but but it's like I don't want an uncomfortable situation my family and people are really good at satisfying their responsibilities and so he goes I don't own anything besides my Harley Davidson and I'm like sign me over the title and magically when time was up and he goes I don't have the money to pay you and I say okay then I'm gonna sell you Harley and I wasn't gonna sell his Harley obviously I don't need his money but he needed you for himself it is so important that people also satisfy their own responsibilities and be responsible human beings that you know he worked really hard he got on payment program he got it all paid back were still close friends but if I didn't have that recourse he wouldn't have paid me he would have never come to a family dinner again for the rest of his life it would always been awkward moving forward so give people the opportunity being responsible and not a shake of a hand it is a good thing to demand these things and and and so when people are out there what did ever investments you do it needs to have some type of protection you've worked so hard to save money do not let it go waste because it's a friend a family or sounds like a great business opportunity you have to have something to protect you and if you do that in 10 years I have not had a single time that I've lost money not one time because I only will stick to the the the rules that I write and because of that it's been very successful for me curious right thank you for coming on is there anything else you want to say before we land this plan nope I appreciate the invitation ones again there was never any harm or ill will towards you or anyone else I just want us to really take this into insurance industry to the next level there's so many great opportunities out there some in great products and a whole lot of trash products and we've got to be able to educate the clients and the public on what are things that need to happen in order to have something that is sustainable long term and they're they're quite objective and that's the great thing about it is anyone who takes a little bit time learn about it you do what you feel is best for you because your goals are what matters maybe whole life is better for you because your goal is AB maybe index universal life is better for you because it's CD maybe MPI strategy using index universal life is DEF whatever find the one that actually satisfies your goals and don't let someone push you into something that's not your goal find out where your goal is great and I'll just I know I said I was gonna end but I'll just the reason and again it's amazing how we can look at the same scenario and have different perspectives but I think that's what makes America so great and these conversations so great I look at the 50% 100% opportunities and when you guys scale those it's gonna be more like a 20 25 of course those are the those the opportunities you know they just get out but again still it's like oh you can get nothing's guaranteed by the way but it's like yeah you can do it you know and so for me this is the exact reason why I don't want to take any risk with my insurance policies and that's also why I'm like okay if I don't internally arbitrage because I'm getting all the benefits of insurance and I'm I'm hitting doubles triples home runs over here and it's like great whereas like on your scenario on paper it will look better 100% like I'm doing the math it will look better hopefully it works out and when it all works out you'll have more money than I will but it just it but then but then on the flip side devil's advocate could say like I want my financial foundation to not be sexy I want it to be rock solid and if that means I make a little less upside that's okay because it's not an investment MPI's not an investment hopefully you're investing in myself or other things and the greatest investment you can make is in your ability to create more value because believe it or not your company and my company are earning more than 100% and is on track for that and so Curtis thank you and I look forward to future conversations