NAIFA CEO Speaks Out Presidential Elections Crucial Impact on Life Insurance

 In a life insurance policy, you can borrow against it, income tax-free, and then obviously it can get passed on income tax-free to the next generation if and when you pass away. What type of provisions are all those on the chopping board? All of them? They all are. How could something so easily unwind? Almost all those provisions expire in 2025. Some of them expire in 2026 and 2027, but they all expire if there's not action taken. Would you even say if these expired, everybody that had annuities and insurance, and this is the way that this was set up? Do you envision that it's grandfathered in and then just going forward? Or is it is it unknown at this point? We gave them stats and studies and showed how harmful this was, again, to the very people that the DOO was saying they were trying to protect. And yet it was like a check the box exercise. They just listen to the commentary and said, thank you very much. No questions. You're gone. And the very people that these regulators believe that they were protecting and looking after were the very people that they were harming. You're creating more friction and you're eliminating the products in the marketplace. And how does eliminating some of the players and taking out competition help? A major consequence of this election is going to be what happens with the federal tax cut. If the Republican nominee gets elected, he has pledged that he's not only going to extend him, he's going to make some additional cuts so that there's more tax savings. And then the Democratic side is basically going to let the most of the major provisions within tax cuts and job sector. How am I not hearing about this from like every single person that I'm talking to, including the insurance companies? Kevin Mayu, the president and CEO of NAPA. Welcome. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Appreciate you having me. It is, it's an honor to have have you here. I would love for you to break down like why NAPA is one of the most important organizations. If if you are in the life insurance space or if you're financial professional, NAPA is an organization that you for sure have heard of and why it's important that we continue to support and the work that you're doing. So my hope is that that gets across. But I also like you are on Capitol Hill seeing what's going on with this is a very politically charged the year this year for obvious reasons. And I just want to hear like what's going on? What are the things that we need to be aware of when it comes to life insurance space and you've agreed to come on a show a couple of times a year to give us the scoop and and for that. I'm just very grateful and and thank you for making time. My pleasure and thank you again for having me and thank you for everybody who's who's watching this and listening. The you know, this is an election here like you mentioned and elections do have consequences and you know different depending upon who controls the White House and who to control what party controls what chambers of Congress really makes a big difference as to what gets done or doesn't get done in Washington DC. It certainly happens at the state level around the country as well. But you know, being a presidential lecture year I guess everybody's much more focused on what's going on or a nation's capital. You know, and there's a with so much turmoil that's taking place in this cycle in particular. You know, just over the past week or so with what's happened with the attempted assassination of the Republican nominee and the democratic incumbent decided he's going to step out of the race. And then trying to figure out again, is it going to be the vice president who's going to get the democratic support or will be something else and will there be a change coming up with the convention. There's a lot of pity here and with what happens at the top of the ticket that tends to impact down ballot races. So very frequently if a presidential candidate for a certain party does well in a state, the folks that are also running for the Senate if there is an election for the Senate in their state as well as those running for Congress tend to tie a little more with how that goes for the presidential ticket. So we could see with the Senate right now being as tightly divided as it is and the margin in the House being the smallest with Jordy margin we've had in decades what really happens with the presidential race could impact whether the Republicans or the Democrats control either the Senate and or the House. And you know, if you get the trifecta where you get a party, whichever one it is that controls the House, the Senate and the presidency. You can get a lot done, but if you get a divided government where you've got one party that controls at least one chamber in Congress or controls the presidency and the both chambers of Congress are run by the different party. Then you have a right opportunity for either just pure division and gridlock and things getting stalled or you have an opportunity for compromise and we'll see what happens with us now. You know, unfortunately over the past several years there's been this prevailing culture in Washington DC where there's not nearly as much dialogue conversation and compromise. It tends to be my side or nothing on both sides of the aisle and in cataly, you know, I don't think that's healthy. But you know, one of the things that we, you know, in NAPA, we're not partisan, you know, we're out there to make sure every American has the right insurance and financial products they need to leave a financially secure life. And if you've got people in either party and in either chamber that are going to back that we're going to back them. And if you've got folks that, you know, don't quite see it that way and aren't going to help enable the private sector and good trusted advisors to help clients put in the right financial plan, then we're not going to back them. And that's regardless of the Republican or Democrat, we just want good people that can help empower Americans to be financially secure. So a ton going on and there's going to be a ton of things up in the air, I think as you look at the polls over the course of the next few months before we get to the election in November, they're going to go up and down and then you're going to have to also figure out what happens with those individual Senate and House races since the margins are so thin for both parties and both chambers. So I'm sure it's going to be a very interesting next few months. I know the word lobbyist is kind of a dirty word. Sometimes when you think of like lobbyists, no one knows who the lobbyists are, but no one wants to be a lobbyist. But is it is it fair to say that you guys are the largest lobbyists on the national and state level when it comes to representing financial security for all. And then when it comes to that, are we talking insurance products like how do you put the scope or framework of what nafta represents and what are some of the talking points that you guys are making sure to mention at the at the at the you know DC level and then at the state level. Well, great questions. So nafta is the oldest and largest professional association in the entire financial services space. You know, we've we're 134 years old, founded in Boston back in 1890 and we have a presence in all 50 state houses around the country and we have a member in every single congressional district across the United States. What that does is it allows us to impact public policy at the state level and then also at the federal level. You know, so our nafta chapters, whether they be a state chapter or in 35 cases around the country, we also have a local chapter in a metro market. They'll go to their state capital. They'll participate in their legislative sessions. They'll meet with their state insurance commissioner. They'll meet with other folks that are involved in regulating securities. They'll meet with the governing committees that oversee financial services in both their state house or assembly and their state senate. They'll also work with the governor and the attorney general in each state again to make sure that the right environment takes place so that advisers can do what they do best and that's really help educate their clients and general consumers about the need for life insurance and other protection products and to put the other the right plan. So that they can be financially secured throughout their life. And so what we do is, you know, nafta used to be back when we were found in 1890, we were the national association of life underwriters or nail. And really back then people were life insurance professionals and they focused on selling life insurance. But what's happened over time is that folks have understood the financial security is more than just life insurance. It also is long term care disability, it's college savings plans, it's savings for retirement having the right plan put together there. There's a lot of different components of helping people get to where they need to be. And so we represent or at least we do our best for a percent that entire gambit. And we look at what the different proposals that are coming up and the state houses all across the country monitor what goes on in all 50 states as well as what regulations are being considered again by the bureaucrats and all 50 states. And then we do that same thing in Washington DC and we work to make sure that the voice financial professionals as well represented against the right legislative and regulatory environment is there so that they can best serve their clients. Yeah, this is a just a plea to you if you're watching this or listening to this and you are a financial professional, I would highly encourage highly highly encourage you to be involved in nafta. And get involved will have a link down below Kevin so you'll hook us up the right call the action and and just like it really does mean the world and and if everyone was like hey we're not going to we're not going to care about that someone else will take care of it. I'm just going to do my thing well we would find is a lot of things that you guys fight for the industry and our profession would would go away and some of the things like we'll talk about when it comes to regulations and when it comes to tax consequences and when it comes to insurance. Like we can talk about that, but this has consequences if we're not going to rally behind that so not that you came on for a commercial, but is there anything you would like to mention as it relates to like if people are interested in learning more where they should. What what what should their next step be 100% listen, there's strength and numbers and the louder your voice, the more impactful you can be we would love to have every financial professional be involved in a photo. You know the more voices the more people that are involved the more impactful we can be in shaping and influencing public policy and there are a lot of folks out there and this happens in every industry so it's not unique to financial services where folks are like like you said Caleb someone else will handle this it will just get done you can't count on that because when politicians both of the state and federal level consider things. Whoever's speaking louder and who's in their face I mean in a good way talking to them about the issues and why things are important those are the audiences and those are the topics to tend to get their attention and if people don't speak up or they don't have enough voices out there so that the voices effectively heard then policy tends to go in the way that doesn't advantage those groups you know you've heard the saying this weeky wheel gets degrees right and that's exactly what happened and that's not going to be a good example. So that's exactly what happens in all forms of lobbying and there are lots of active coalitions and associations and groups out there that for some reason don't see the real value that advisors give every single day for their clients and they want to do things like regulate and put fiduciary standards in place they really want to shift things so that the state runs insurance programs and other financial services and individuals and companies and free market and it's not and those things we think are just bad we want to provide more access and more choice and more opportunity and the best way we can do this by having more people involved and lend their voices to the cost so again I just encourage you to check out the nafe website if you're not a member see what we're all about but you can go to nafe.org slash join and find out you know how to become a member and how to participate and if you are a nafe member first of all thank you. For your contributions to the larger industry for to the profession and most importantly to the 90 million American families that we serve but also there's ways you can get deeper engaged if you've got the time and desire to do so through advocacy messages through videos through other ways that we can help effectively using today's technology get the word and more policy makers and we're working on creative ways to do that every single day let's let's look at the national and then let's go to the state I want to hear. What's currently going on as we speak and what has happened in the past couple years and some of the consequences I know that there was there's a state in particular that pass some really scary things as relates to life insurance and taxation that you guys were all over and there's a couple things we can we can go a couple different directions I know that nafe is bipartisan I I've been on Capitol Hill with you guys and it's we're sharing stories and it's like your meeting with Republicans and Democrats and it's been a great deal. I would say all of my experiences were really good because no one's going to be like no what you guys do is not helpful because majority of politicians I would imagine there's there's benefits to an advisor but there does seem to be the it tends to be and I'll say it so you don't have to but it seems like the Republicans are more pro our industry and less regulation and it seems like the Democrats are more of like I don't know what they're talking points are but like hey they almost say it's not going to be a good deal. I see the financial professional as taking advantage or and so they almost want to put together like these regulations and in their mind will be like well more regulation make sure that there's a better service but the thing that they might not be saying is more regulation just takes out a ton of people and we're already not serving America to the level that we should be and and so why is more regulation the solution so I don't again that's a talking point that you can talk about but then I also know that you are telling me about some of the things upcoming and something doesn't get renewed it could affect the tax benefits that we that we have on life insurance I would love to talk about for the consumer but then also for the financial professional and just talk about some of the things that are going on on the national and state level that we should be aware of. Hey it's Caleb Williams here I'm just interrupting this video quickly to invite you to check out our asset vault you may have been there we've actually re revamping it and if you are somebody that wants to learn more about is life insurance right fit for me. Does this and that's it makes sense like does this actually help me be more efficient we put together a 10 minute documentary style video and I can test a really really good job giving the history why the and that's it different setups and designs that we use and then we have an and that's it all that gives like case studies calculators handbooks and so much more we are here to serve you whether it's a conversation whether it's education or the video so make sure to go check out and that's it dot column slash bolt learn more. Absolutely and and you packed a lot in there but your spot all yeah you know there are some in every state capital but I'll talk generically about our nation's capital there's a bureaucratic class of folks that stay with agencies kind of no matter who's in charge you know who's the president and what's going on in Congress unless Congress would city fund something and they they tend to think that they know better how to serve. Americans then you know the people do themselves and so when they get an administration in place that is friendly towards amping up regulation they'll take advantage of that and then they'll resurface ideas that were candidly failed and defeated in the past and bring them back up so an issue of you know part of that case and then the question is the department of labor with this fiduciary only stated that they put in place in a final rule you and a bunch of our advisors that are watching or listening today may realize or may remember that just a few years back back in 2017 NETA the American Council of Life Insurance and others took the department of labor to court and sued over that rule because we said not only is it beyond your statutory authority granted by Congress for you to enact this rule but we're not going to be able to do that. But on top of it it's going to cause great economic harm to American families and what we saw when that rule was in place for the eight or nine months it was before the fifth circuit court of appeals invalidated it and tossed the rule out and its entirety what we did see is exactly what we predicted we would see lower and middle income Americans did not have access to professionals that could help them put together a financial plan and so people were buying less financial products. Life insurance and otherwise they can help them live a financially secure life and the very people that these regulators believe that they were protecting and looking after were the very people that they were harming because of it if you're a person of higher wealth you you can go out and pay for somebody to put together a plan for you and they will assume that responsibility because they're taking on that fiduciary duty but they're going to charge you a premium for it and that's great if that's a good thing. It's the model that the consumer wants to use which you've got a lot of folks that just don't have that much money and paying via a commission model just makes a lot more economic sense for them to at least start putting the building blocks in place so that they're financially secure in life but the liabilities just too high to do that on a lot of these you know premiums that are lower in value and so companies were saying we're going to get out the space altogether and then consumers were denied choice. And opportunity and many lower and middle income Americans just simply lost the opportunity to get the right stuff in place for their financial plan and that's what we're trying to stop from happening again so they basically took the 2016 Department of Labor fiduciary rule rehashed it actually I think made it worse and then reenacted it and put it in place despite of course testimony that I gave directly to the Department of Labor and to the White House office of the government. So let's say we gave this management budget that our members gave directly we gave them stats and studies and showed how harmful this was again to the very people that the deal was saying they were trying to protect. like a check the box exercise. They just listen to the commentary and said thank you very much, no questions, you're gone. Check the box we met with key constituents and then they put in place this rule. So we're back at it, we're suing again in the fifth circuit in North Texas and I think we're going to get the same outcome we did last time because not one word is statutory authority has changed for the department over that time. The shame is is that what they say they want to accomplish, we've already kind of put in place the right structure to do that. You know we worked with the Securities and Exchange Commission which we did does have the authority to do this and we came up with regulation BI, fully endorsed it, worked hand in hand with them and came up with a workable solution to make sure again the best censures of Americans are being looked after every day. And then we worked with the National Association of Insurance Commissioners, the NAIC, to come up with their annuity best interest model that we've now seen adopted in more than 45 states. It's more than 90% of Americans are already covered by these enhanced standards. There's no need for the Department of Labor's rule and all that's going to do is just place people from getting insurance and that's just well annuity products. It's just it's just a bad idea and Naif has got your back whether it comes to again regulations while they're being formed on Capitol Hill if we do something about it on the legislative front and then if we need to we'll use the third branch of government to see things get repealed. Why does the whole commission products have such a bad rap? Because it definitely seems like if I could boil it down what it sounds like is there's certain people that say it's impossible to do the right thing because you guys get paid a commission. But what's interesting and again I'll say this you don't have to. You're telling me that you take one test and that test makes you a fiduciary and now you're it just there's certain things that I look at and the same thing is I can look at a hundred different fiduciaries Kevin and they could give a hundred different outcomes and invite and so it's almost like I see it as a you're creating more friction and you're eliminating the products in the marketplace and how does eliminating some of the players and taking out competition help. Like how does that help? Because if you want like there's the free market saying like if you want to do a fee on the annuities there's options there's there's literally options for all these things and again like like you said what you're doing with high regulation is you're just eliminating people to not want to work with middle class lower class especially when you start putting like these negative like what could happen if you screw up it's like why would I take the risk serve you know middle class America when when if they catch me doing something now I now all my businesses up up in jeopardy again all these things are like probably we're speaking to the choir but like what why do what's their argument like I want to see both sides is there's something that they're making that you're like you have a valid point and that's why you guys are coming together with the NIC best interest concept of like you have a point so this is how our compromise yeah um I don't really know why they're they're continuing to push this except for the fact that there's this there's some die hard um I don't want to use the wrong word here uh folks bureaucrats in the department of labor particularly that just believe that you can't trust financial advisors and the way to do it is to put this you know strict liability type standard on them if they're going to help serve folks but all that does like you said is it eliminates choice it drives people out of the marketplace and then you have people that are you know not financially prepared when the time comes um and it's a it's a real shame you know what they well don't point to occasionally and and even you you you've probably heard some very vocal members of the US Senate the one from Massachusetts particularly likes to bring up um stories about how you know their constituents have you know been sold a product or something that they really didn't need etc and we're like well that was covered by the suitability stated and occasionally and everything you get people to make mistakes but you've got remedies on how to fix that you don't need to sit back and block access and take away choice you know because what the fiduciary rule is it's really not a fiduciary rule it's a fiduciary only rule yeah it takes away your opportunity uh to do business in a different way and all that's going to do is drive out um uh advisers from the market and it's going to make americans be in the position where um they just don't have the right products in place and they're not financial prepared for life so it's uh it's a it's a it's a real shame okay let's move on to the consumer side yeah there's a lot of people that watch this that are pro insurance pro annuities and it's my understanding that we take some things for granted that of like let's take life insurance tax benefits when set up and use properly some of the best benefits out there talk to me about you know your view of that and then talk to me about some of the think consequences that in the future that could change those benefits and we can pontificate and speculate uh based on some of the things that you're seeing in in states and on the capital. Thanks for bringing that up uh we we talked about how elections have consequences and a major consequence of this election is going to be what happens with the federal tax code uh you might remember back in 2017 the tax cuts and jobs act uh was signed into law and that you know gave tax treatment to a variety of things including not taxing of insight build up uh tax treatment on a ton of things that impact every american through the financial services industry in fact when you look at the top 10 revenue generated items that congress can consider to extend their current tax status or amend it uh meaning either lower it or get rid of it or enhance it you know to make a change to it six of the 10 largest loans are directly related to the financial services industry and when there's programs the federal government wants to fund they do one of two things they other deficits spend which i would argue is bad for the economy because we've gotten to the point that our debt uh interest on our debt now exceeds who won't be spend on defense spending um but on top of that it's it's tax generation and so only the federal government could think of something that they'll they will call um if they don't tax you they call it an expenditure and i'm like how's that an expenditure cannot tax somebody but they do they call it an expenditure but six of the 10 largest tax expenditures um are related to our space and so the tax cuts and jobs act when that was put in place in 2017 it was done through a process called reconciliation and so many of the keep they all had all the key provisions had to expire and most of them expire in 2025 so if congress and the white house don't take action they go away so it's going to take an affirmative vote of congress and a signature of the president uh to extend many of those tax cuts past 2025 and so the current tax treatment that many of the products uh that your listeners either purchase or uh make available to consumers uh would be given a different tax treatment if the tax cuts and jobs act release those keeper visions of it aren't renewed past 2025 so an awful lot's out there that can impact everybody's pocketbook and ability to save is the main thing on the table the tax referral like in a life insurance policy that's like a permanent policy and an annuity that the growth grows tax deferred and meaning like it's you don't have to pay tax on all the growth each each year which is advantageous uh and then in a life insurance policy you can borrow against it income tax-free and then obviously it gets it can get passed on income tax-free to to the next generation if and when you pass away what type of provisions as are like are all those on the top top yes all of them they all are the corporate tax rate is on the table the premium tax credit rules um under the affordable care act those are all the table uh private placement life insurance is all the table the 199A deduction that of course the advisors take advantage of is on the table um estate planning the death tax what happens when people pass away that's on the table other wealth taxes um including you know some of these provisions to tax people that make a certain income level at a higher level that's on the table um all those topics are okay but these tax deferral in a life insurance policy and the tax well the thing that that uh is a little bit shocking is within the lat like life insurance as far as i can remember has always been has always experienced tax treatment and obviously when the modified endowment contract came in about was that 1988 or 1986 with tamra that got changed and and now like a modified endowment contract experiences different tax advantages than a properly structured life insurance so when you when you mention this it it almost seemed like how could something so easily unwind and that's why i just wanted to clarify but you're saying all those things including tax deferred growth in these insurance products and the income tax-free death benefit is is on the table to expire if if there's not someone that can do something about it yeah so almost all those provisions expire in 2025 some of them expire in 2026 and 2027 but they all expire if there's not action taken so the vast majority of that battle will be in 2025 and maybe all of it will be in 2025 and some sort of an enhanced tax package if the republican nominee gets elected he has pledged that he's not only gonna extend him he's gonna make some additional cuts so that there's more tax savings and then the democratic side is basically gonna let the most of the major revisions within tax cuts and jobs act expire so it really does depend on who gets to be in the white house but also you know who controls each chamber of commerce i'm sorry of congress is gonna have a you know a huge say because it takes all three to make law you know you've got to pass the house the senate and get the president to sign it unless you've got a two-thirds vote in both chambers it can override the president and the two-thirds vote is not gonna happen in either chamber so you really gotta get all three to work together yeah and that's also why like you talked about earlier about having more people engaged in the process become a member help out when we send out an action alert it takes literally 30-second story spawn to it click on it you type in your information your zip code and all that and the sense things that are customized out to your both your US senators and your member of congress um more voices like that again the wheel gets squeaky and the squeaky wheel gets degrees and then it's more likely if we have a lot of folks again helping educate policymakers about what these real practical impacts would be if these parts of the tax code are not extended um it'll better help them understand that and they'll look for other sources of revenue instead of ours it's more like you know if you're being chased by a bear having them find another target instead of you is a better thing to do and um so it's it's we definitely have our hands full in 2025 the one of the reasons for just you could say tax expenditure which is messed up that they use that word but it's true it's like okay we're getting less revenue but you have to ask I should want to give tax benefits to things that help our country and for the biggest argument of why life insurance should be income tax-free is because if we know and have life insurance it would be a crazy high strain on social security and and the government so the fact that private companies are saying we are literally taking this crisis risk off your hands is why US governments like yes we will give you an income tag like we'll give you that tax benefit because you are able to manage that risk better it would cost us more to do that even if if we got that revenue the same thing goes with annuities you're telling me right now when we are we're like a third world country when it comes to our retirement plans and so and you're saying a great option would be let's make those financial security products even less less attractive doesn't doesn't make any sense to me um and the same same same thing goes with like DI disability payments like right now you can't get a hundred percent of your paycheck in like a disability but the payment comes income tax-free and so you can you know have maybe 60 percent and but it makes up a big portion especially when you factor in taxes and all that seems to be you know it just it for me it just doesn't my my hope would be even if the democrats won that there would be some people that say hey listen like let's not throw everything out because this stuff has consequences and they're pretty big I have another follow-up question but is there anything else that you want to say to that oh yeah I mean one I think that we should run you either for the senate or you should be a cabinet member um because you're you're spot on um but too I mean it's not like again this isn't it isn't a partisan issue per se it's just a who is in charge issue per se so we do have plenty of democrats um and both chambers that are pro retirement savings and um want to ensure opportunities but we've also got some other people that don't quite understand the fact that you know advisors are there to help and people only um make the right moves and do the right financial planning when they're motivated to do so when someone talks about the importance of doing it um and they're not going to get that on the run with that advice so there there is a major disconnect out there and you know there there's some that believe that there are some in different sectors or not sectors sections I guess that uh do want people to become more reliable on or rely more on the government to take care of them um and we don't believe that we believe that people should you know the private sector is here to help the private sector can provide the right financial solutions and people should be able to provide for themselves but do in the right plan and and have a good advisor to help them put together that plan. Yeah I mean I I'm a big fan of life insurance especially and it becomes a lot less attractive if you lose tax benefits for that. I'm sorry. For you the grandfather in like so back in you know when they changed the mech rules everyone that had a modified endowment contract did get grandfathered in on what their contract said obviously this is uncharted waters but historically would you even say if these expired everybody that had annuities and insurance and this is the way that this was set up do you envision that it's grandfathered in and then just going forward or is it is it unknown at this point? It's definitely unknown I would envision the prior policies would be grandfathered in because that's the way government tends to do things they tend to make an effective date and then it's moving forward from the effective date but that's not guaranteed so um we would we would definitely still need to work on that if they were to expire. Okay next question is is the iron how IRAs are tax deferred of like are we talking set IRAs Roth IRAs are pretty much anything tax-related all kind of bundle up in this whole thing? Well they're bundle up in part of it. One of the other tax expenditures on the list is the tax treatment given to IRAs and so there was a a big thought about what we're going to do is force people to go into I think no that was roughification and there was a proposal just a few years ago that would force everyone to go into a Roth style IRA and you know I personally love Roth IRAs. Same I think they're amazing and I think that everybody can afford it you should do a Roth IRA and even if you mean you put a little lesson to take advantage of it I think the net over time is going to be much greater but again it was eliminating choice it was you couldn't do a traditional IRA it was you would have to do a Roth IRA because it was a cash grab it was get the revenue now as opposed to get it later when they start to withdraw at a per time luckily that went away and the house of that time was under Republican control and the Senate was under Democratic control but we we still get that that proposal quashed but that was on the table just a few years ago. Yeah well and again I don't I don't want to sound too dramatic but a lot a lot coming down the pipe obviously everything's up for grab historically like the government they grandfather people in that's what they've done historically but again there there can be things that get get changed but this would be big big big and unfortunately it doesn't sound like I'm trying to think for the silver lining like Caleb would be the benefit of oh this stuff happening and I I'm just a pretty I'm not pro like hey let's just eliminate choices and oh like anyone that's gone to the DMV more than once in their life is not like yeah these this is the system that we should this would be great if the DMV ran everything like my my health insurance my life insurance my new it like it just you know it's my my personal opinion I don't speak for anyone but myself but overall I appreciate you sharing this because when we had this conversation I was like Kevin I'm in the space I would like to think I'm pretty connected how are you how am I not hearing about this from like every single person that I'm talking to including the insurance companies and so this this just goes to the fact that sometimes we can stay in our bubble sometimes we can just focus on our current what we're working on but we don't realize that there's people making decisions that don't have a clue or a fraction of the knowledge that we're in day and day out that really could affect not just our livelihood but affect our clients and future clients because anyone that's working with you currently they may be good but like the people going forward can you imagine eliminating all the benefit like it just becomes less attractive and it's and it's not like oh people are super sad like we're making people millionaires every day because of our amazing system no like you could look at the way that we have our system set up and say we're failing and just just a event session for Caleb so appreciate you listening and well we've got like like like I think your core sentiment there is you know we as a country are dramatically underinsured you know you've got some people that have no insurance whatsoever I'm shocked and I run across these people occasionally that's so I can say what there's more insurance than just auto am I yeah are you serious I mean and these are like young families you a husband a wife that if you know got two young kids and there's there's no thought it the thought it just hasn't even gotten on their head about having you know life insurance there to take care of your surviving spouse and your children should you pass away and you know then you talked about it they're like oh well that that makes sense but they need to have advisors that could talk to them about it it helps steer them to making the right decisions so that they are financially prepared and without that it would be bad thing for our country is there anything else going on at the state level or the capital that level that should we should be aware of or would it would be beneficial for us to be aware yeah those states are very clever and you know just when you think you've you've gotten a bad idea under control somewhere it'll pop up somewhere else and so you've got you've got 51 different governmental entities to keep an eye on the big dog in DC but then in all 50 state capitals and when something passes in one state and it goes into effect other states say well that was clever you know um Washington state just said this thing with long-term care insurance maybe we should do it too and then the same concept pops up even when the concept hasn't even had time to see what the results are because it just happened like during the last legislative session and so we stay on top of that every day we've got Naive has a lobbyist engaged in all 50 state capitals we stay on top of what's going on both regulatory wise as well as legislatively and all 50 states and then we go in and we help educate folks as to you know why a public policy decision is a bad one like um the pro act is something that pops up you know sometimes on the federal scene but that's basically taking away the independent contractor status for financial professionals and others but it would impact financial professionals uh California was considering that and we actually got a carve out to remove the financial services industry you know because if what you want to do is do that for um Uber drivers and folks like that and if that's what they want that's fine but for our members they don't want that at all um and so we had to create a carve out but we we we do that every year every state legislative session uh we of course do that educating the insurance commissioners and others um our relationship with the N A I C again the national association of insurance commissioners really gives us a great ad with those policy makers at the state level and they see the fact that NAFTA and our advisor members can be great resources and great selling boards when they're considering uh what they're going to do in terms of regulation and so we stay we work with them work in lockstep we try to find workable solutions uh to the issues that pop up and show them that hey we really are partners in helping every American achieve financial security so let's work together to do it right Kevin I want to thank you so much for taking time to to be on the show I remember when you came to my event three years ago and you had to speak for a room of little little over a hundred people and it was incredible for you to show up and and you've always believed in what we're up to and you've you've just been an amazing friend taking me to the grand o'oppy uh most recently when you coming in that Nashville and so I just appreciate you doing doing this with with me and I want to just say to those of you listening or watching if you have questions about your state or what's happening in the news or what's going on please comment or reach out to to myself because this won't be the last time that Kevin comes on and my hope is that if you're not involved with NAFTA you get involved and let me know about that because I I just would make me feel good so that that's number one but then number two that we can be the the place where people go to check in what's happening because I know there's something that you mentioned about the tax tax then coming down like that's going to be new to many people that watch this or listen to this and it it will just be it's like the greatest sales pitch to why we need to be involved in organizations like NAFTA because you guys are going to bat for us you're going to bat for everybody whether they're part of NAFTA or not and for that I want to thank you is there any final words that you have Kevin as it relates to what you guys are up to and well I appreciate you having me on Caleb always enjoy our conversations always enjoy picking your brain about things but most of all enjoy you as a person so thanks for having me here thank you