43-Year-Old Uses Infinite Banking To Wipe Out His Debt Naked Numbers

 And we are open for about a year and a half and then COVID hit. I was probably almost 400 grand into dead after things. Oh wow. The bankruptcy you have really effect your credit? Yeah, this is where it gets interesting. Here's as I was trying to mix velocity banking to IBC and the uninterrupted compounding interest was mind blowing. People on the internet you know are gonna potentially roast you or me because they're like what an idiot because I've really I'm gonna actually do something I've never done on naked numbers. I mean this might give you goosebumps to 15 and divided by 0.4. You ready for this? Like what's the opportunity cost of regret the value of your life is always measured by how much fit was given away. I'm Brian. I'm from California. I'm 43 years old and this is naked numbers. Perfect man. Thank you so much for for being on the show and I am excited. I'm excited because in looking at your financial life there's not a lot of people that have come on naked numbers two day that are our fans of overfunded life insurance. So we're gonna have a whole conversation about your philosophy there the things that you wish you would have known before you're getting in. Things that you are planning on going forward and I can I can tell you that there's a lot of answers that I could give you from a standpoint you have questions there. And I'm just excited to in the in the few minutes that we've been talking like I'm just excited to have this conversation with you and I think a lot of people are going to be blessed through it. So I have to say before we jump in this is not tax legal investment insurance advice. It's not advice at all. This is for educational purposes only. So if those of you watching you want to come on the show you do it is but I'm not giving you advice and then you're not not giving advice through watching this on YouTube. So don't sue me and that's my disclaimer. Before before we jump into your data I would love to hear who you are, why you've decided to come on the show and like what would be some important facts for people watching to like just know like Brian tell me a little bit about Brian and his family. Sure. I have a family of six including myself and my wife and four children. My oldest is a sophomore in college. My next is a boy who is getting ready to graduate and then I have two other boys that are as young as six grade at the bottom and then the other ones are freshmen. I am a big soccer player. My father is from France and that served a lot of my teens growing up. So I'm big in the sports. I'm still involved in our community that way. I'm a triathlete or I try to be at least Ironman. I completed Ironman last year. And I'm in California. So I'm that is something nobody can take away from me and I will always tell people because I'm proud of that. In my profession I'm a clinical laboratory scientist for healthcare provider here in California. Turned healthcare IT analysts so I kind of have I've always had kind of been a little bit of a computer geek and midst of all these things. And so I found a good niche that kind of fits those two. Man I have so much more I could say but that might be enough. You're married. I am married. By the way my mom is named Laurie so I think that's that's awesome. What does Laurie do? She is a supervisor. She actually is a supervisor at one of our church facilities. She does a lot of laundry and it's actually the temple here in Sacramento. That's amazing. Okay. That's awesome. So she and full time mom which is a hard time. I don't want to get controversial but we talk about gender gaps and all that stuff. I think we can all agree that stay at home moms don't get paid enough. I win brown points. I think every time I say that across the board. Any time I reach sources that's a resource for a family. I mean especially these days nowadays in California. I mean it's that's right. Well I just I just had someone on the show and they're they're paying to grand a month for for their their kids. And it's it's crazy but it's kind of that catch 22 and so that's amazing that she's able to do that. You know one thing that we're really key here is just what what does your life look like from an intentional living standpoint. I don't believe you're wealthy if you're not able to live intentionally and I think one of the things that really drives intentional living is your why. How how would you I know I'm putting you on a spot here but how would you articulate you and your families why and if money wasn't an issue like what would you be spending your time and skill sets doing throughout your life. That was a great question I think about this a lot from my why I love to. I would say I have a heart of a teacher I love to teach that's why I love to coach it's like I. I love to bring people together I'm a connector and a teacher I'd say and in that way I like to find people help people find their own path. And help them collect along the way with people who can compliment them and help them on their journey. And a lot of search that that's just something I really find passionate if I can find a way to have a job to do that and actually make money that would be you know awesome. You know I but yeah that's that's where I always look for those opportunities I find it through serving so at the end of the day serving in any capacity is going to help me meet that need. Whether it's community faith base whatever it is right there's always people needs to risk whether you have the same faith to believe so not so. So I look for that and I just I love pushing human boundaries so I love Iron Man that's why I love those human like you don't know what you can do until you do it and most of us don't dig deep enough we we. We we do our way to workouts to stop it you know one to two reps left we stop early we do it we stop when we can do three or four reps it's you know it's it's scientifically. Prove in a lot of studies that's how we are so that's kind of my way push push. I think a long day way that's people ready to run through a wall right now listening to us who would have thought naked numbers it would produce such motivation I would say I heard this quote that really impacted just my life and it's it said the value of your life is always measured by how much fit was given away. And so it's like man like when you look at some of the most influential people. The people that have changed changed their lives it's usually the people that gave something they gave their time gave their gave their life gave gave money all that all that and and so it's really cool if you can think back on your life and be like man. Like I live a valuable life and I'm measuring that because of what I gave away or was able to give away I think that has a lot to do with having a really fulfilling intentional life versus the people that just make enough to survive it's like that's indirectly very selfish and that translates into maybe not having a ton of fulfillment and so I think that's really cool I very much here that that family is important to you and really pushing you. Really pushing your body is also important I think like other people can be like you're a sick sick man to want to do this Iron Man but I think it's really amazing and our bodies are capable so much so. Anything you want to add before I ask you one more question before we dive in your data. Oh man. How enjoying what what the last question I have as relates to your overview is what beliefs did you have about money or like what was your upbringing about money because I find that the way that we are up brought up very much influences the way that we think about money today. Sure very interesting so my father was a certain most most of his life was as a produce manager for a well known retail chain. The thing that most of you if that's what they judge the mat they would be they'd be very surprised. He went to school for business. He wanted to get in business he told me as a young man he went into state of the store because taking a pay cut after he got his degree was not appealing to him but he always wish he had but what he did do because with that that education business he got into a lot of real estate so my dad had a fair number of properties not I talk I say real estate there's a lot of people get into a lot of real estate but for us growing up. He had I mean by the time I was 15 our house was paid off because he had been funneling all the term of duplex from you get to other houses to two other homes are home in a duplex not a lot of real estate but it supplemented produce managers income enough that we we honestly and now I know we didn't really have that much want now talking about how I brought up my parents were a little bit if we're if I was using another person in this. This IBC world. Garrett Gunners and talk a little bit about your personality and my family's a little bit miseresque. You know that so you may have something similar but that was kind of there. There they they we had some money more money than we thought but my parents could be a little stingy with it. So that they always have you early on we had budgets I'm grateful for my parents taught me they should they showed me good money habits a lot of good a lot of good money habits when a world where you never know what you're going to get with families right. You know they always my mom is made taught me pay your tiding first you pay your you I had a little box with three three spots pay yourself paid a lord. And then say for whatever you're going to buy right like I mean that's just got at a very minimal level and my mom gave me a little journal I keep a ledger what I paid is we're just yeah that was my education in finance and I wasn't perfect and you know but that's what is and I can't remember yeah that's when I was really young so what what made you want to be on the show. Do I love what you guys do at the end of the day I this my young jump but you know I came from that a world of the Dave Ramsey and Susie or man's right like which I love I get on your budget. Like that was a big thing for me when I finished my my college education I paid off on my student loans I had about 30,000 dollars a student loans I paid them off in a year and a half. Like I had a situation where all of a sudden I had a job that was making more than I thought I was going to make. And the blessings were about it I just paid it off from there. When I had there's this time when I didn't have any necessarily debt I didn't know what to do I wish I could go back and and get an IBC and things so when we talk about what you're doing and what we're doing on this show that's why I'm like this what I want to be I believe in this I know I can be more efficient in my use of IBC. And I'm again I don't know what I don't know I'm the first to say if I don't know something I'll raise my hand if I think I know I'll talk about it forever but like that's why I'm so. So income wise you make a hundred forty thousand which is which is often probably feels a lot less in California but that's that's awesome awesome income it's more than that. And and your your wife makes about fifteen thousand and so bringing your total gross family income to about a hundred fifty five thousand is there anything else that you want to add there. I mean sometimes my job I get over time so that can pop up a little bit but you know yeah that's that's that's right right now that's my. And I see a three percent cost of living obviously here that's that's a that's something that do you do you get a raises every year for the most I do yeah I Mars our company's done pretty good it's pretty big health company so it's been pretty consistent. And then from a you have from forty two to sixty like you want to retire at sixty or like I hate the word retirement but like stop working at six. I do too. I guess Mike what I would like to do is be able to work when I want to work and where I want to work. Yeah. That's my point of retirement that's that's why I think about it. Cool all right one thing that we're going to do is we're going to take what you're currently spending and we're going to model that out and one thing that I see that you've put all the way down as you're in like pass income debt snowball and one of the things that I think will be vital and it'll be fun to do this in real time is be able to see what kind of income should we be shooting for and then kind of reverse engineered that and using infinite banking if that's a strategy want to go it's really comes alive when you can buy other assets that produce income and we'll be able to get an idea of like what that number is so that it's not this some feeling but you actually have in your mind like this is what I need to be bringing in. And so that's something that will we'll do it by at the end and I'm excited to go through that. I need to know I'm a numbers guy my data and all the sky. Cool. Yeah it's great. Liability is it looks like you have a 403 B loan you know and it looks like it's 21 thousand dollars at a five and a quarter interest rate your monthly payment is 570 is that you want to just unpack what that is. Yeah so that 403 B loan I took I mean I did in that one you actually are paying yourself back with interest. Yeah obviously it's on already tax dollars so now you're double getting double tax on that so I don't at the time I never really thought about that so I got into this IBC world and realized like oh I'm putting double to anyways yeah I actually use that to fund my first policy to rally I get a dump in okay I did a dump and I it worked out I saw I saw some signs and I personally believe the market was going to dipping yeah and then I came across IBC and then rather just kind of do the minimum funding I kind of looked at I'm like you know what I'm going to put more in there than I originally started and I mean I get this debt snowball like rollin a little quicker so that was my made I don't know where you say that snowball I don't see any other debts that you have I walked I walked him out okay you went to mouth using my did yeah this might be intimidating for for me to be asking you this but in your own words explain how you discovered discovered infant banking what does infant banking mean to you sure discovery of it was kind of by chance I just happened to be scrolling on Instagram and I don't know who's channel was but someone was asking guy in the street what's your you know it's one of those ones are asking people who look wealthy like what's your what's your one money advice and it made me stop because the gentleman said whole life insurance now for me coming from the day for you know I was like what the heck is this guy talking about like no way right and then I don't remember for the same day but it was within the same amount of time I saw another YouTuber or another you know someone else not YouTuber just another person who was talking about this infant banking and I was like he just whole whole life what the heck and I just found out Nelson Nash found some other books just did a deep dive on your channel found some some others and I just said my goodness you know keeping in mind I just come off of a bankruptcy because COVID killed off what we wanted we we did that approach like I said like that mentality you got to risk money to make money that's what we had just done and we lost a lot of money and so I in that moment I even clicked I'm like man if I just funded it a little bit different myself I could have floated those loans a little bit or not had to pam or just say what it given me some flexibility that I just didn't have with the way that I funded my business and as I just went that deep down this more and more and more I was like man I wish I would have started this a lot longer and could have used it a lot you know a lot there was the epiphany for you that you could be do you like that you have access to your money throughout your life you so get the benefits long term compounding there's there's like we always talk about growth right and grow on your money like it's magically going to happen that's the that's the 12% like you always see like this is what it's average that's what it's all about you know what I'm saying is that you're not going to be a lot of money and you're not going to be a lot of money and you're not going to be a lot of money and you're not going to be a lot of money and you're not going to be a lot of money and you're not going to be a lot of money and you're not going to be a lot of money and you're not going to be a lot of money and you're not going to grow out is not how it actually works when you look at it in and the truth is I look at nothing's guaranteed life I mean I love a whole life but I don't know what's going to happen the world? but I don't that's just my opinion. But I looked at it and I saw this, like you say, it's a foundational asset that if I would have had access to a lot earlier, I could just think, I could just see how my choices would have been different, how I would have used money differently, all those kind of things. And so, the last part was what does in the bank mean to me? It's making sure your money grows on, for the rest of your life, every dollar you put in there is efficient and growing for you and it gives you that flexibility. It's for your money and where you get to make the decision what's gonna happen to it, not some other, you know, other person is gonna be better. You are in your research, was it, did the credit or protection and the fact that you have an increasing death benefit and like the other, like areas where life insurance could potentially enhance income distribution? Did that stuff excite you or was it mainly just the fact that your money could compound and you could utilize your money at the same time and that concept long term was like, oh, I see where that could be beneficial. Yeah, the uninterrupted compounding interest was mind blowing for me. And then I give that you can borrow against it. Again, coming from a guy who was doing these 403 B loans on a couple of different things, I'm like, it wasn't that foreign to me. I'm like, oh, I can borrow against it and pay it back. It's not an exact because obviously you're paying some insurance coming skin. Yeah, you worked out the market's down, but yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah. Okay, it's interesting. So all those things kind of, and then, I mean, the credit or thing was interesting to me because California, I'm still unsure in California. It seems like you still don't agree to cover your California. So that part, I was like, well, that's cool. Not so much for me, but yeah. Okay. But yeah, those are the things. I'm curious to everyone has their own journey. I think the logically, if I'm playing devil's advocate, you look at it and it's like, hey, you're making money, but you're also paying for a loan. So like for me, what really the epiphany for me was like, when I started putting actual benefits on other things than just the rate of return, because the uninterrupted compounding and being able to borrow against, that was the only thing that was beneficial. Like mathematically, it's not that valuable. That's true. One thing I will say though is, oh, sorry. And. No, no, I mean, that's, I mean, mathematically, you could make arguments about human behavior. Like do people actually have compounding the rest of their life, probably not? Are they going to stop compounding curves and all that? But human, like mathematically, it's not like revolutionary. But when you start adding in all the other benefits, that's where for me, it's like, yeah, people hate on insurance all day long and they compare it to an investment. But that's the big misconception is, I don't think they actually understand when we talk about giving your dollars more than one job, the philosophy of foundational as an Anne versus an or. That Anne asset, your book was great. It was the second or third one I read after this was all the ones. And so that hits the point home too, is it's not an or, it's literally the end. The one thing I could say also, I didn't touch on is, for me, again, I'm a legacy guy. Family is everything, like my progenit, like that's it, right? So much of our financial planning that I heard is really much, oh, just cover your life. You just need to cover your life while you're alive. Like that was fair enough. I mean, that's their mindset. I can't handle it. After I'm dead, I can't really affect the world anyways. A lot of people's mentality, right? Well, the whole I, what we're talking about with whole life and other things is, well, you can. You can have a, whatever it's a family office, you can do the, like, what would billionaires do, right? It's like, yeah. You can literally affect future generations or your places and what you're doing with your life. So that legacy was another reason, but I know. I don't know if you in the overview, you really talked about your business that failed. You don't have to give me any details if you don't want to, but like what they, like I feel like that's pretty important to understand the context of like, what type of business was it, were you in there long? Was it a franchise? Like what was it and how did it fail and what did you learn through that? Because one of the things that I'm gonna go talk to is like, infinite banking is only as good as how we use it. And so we got to figure out a way to create cash flow and that's, it's obviously something I can't give investment advice, but that's what we'll have an exercise around of like what that is. And obviously business is a fun fun, but it sounds like there's some battle scars there. So can you tell me everything that you can and then we'll just leave it at that. Sure. Yeah, we, I hit a point in my life and I love my job on the wrong. I mean, I love it, but I hit a point where I just felt like I needed to do something else as well. I needed to, whether it was this push me to affect other people, connect the teacher in me, whatever it is, I felt like I needed something else. I spent a good multi day fast trying to decide that this was something for me to do. Multi day, like there's four days and I had a lot of clarity. I did some exercises during that time and I was, I, I felt more clarity than I had felt a lot of times and I felt really impressed to do this. So we opened up franchise, I won't name names, but it was a kids education franchise. So they attempt right of my alley. I love teaching. I love helping people along their way as a franchise, getting kids and how to use technology and be effective with it. I love the idea, right? The truth is it was a brand new franchise. When you know there's a new franchise, there's not a whole lot of detail. So you're really banking on the idea and all those things. So one of my key things I learned is if you're gonna do a franchise, make sure you really know what the franchise is actually viable and it's not just a hit miss. They have two sites that worked and they have ones don't, right? But I felt impressed to go on it and to go on and we funded it. How much was it to fund? Well, the franchise fee itself wasn't very much. It was only about $20,000. And that's what I used originally. I used a 403 B loan for that. And then afterward I got a little like ANSI. I didn't want too many people buying up around me. So I bought another territory for another $10,000 near me. And yeah, and we just started building out. That franchise on all, but it's high more. We had our bankruptcy. I was probably almost 400 grand and to dead after things. The buildout was supposed to be by there, by their standards. The buildout was only supposed to be like 120,000 maybe. But there just wasn't the data to validate that, right? There's maybe only a couple centers. So it became really different. The franchise itself recommended even the spaces, the size of it, they've since changed. I understand why, because if you've ever done and to retail leases before, you pay a lot. And it's not just what you're paying for that. You have triple nets and all these other things. And so yeah, this just say the space was too big. The rent was too much. The idea in and of itself, I think if we had had a smaller space, I could have made it work. But even my friends were in it now struggling sometimes saying, it's not really making what they thought it was going to make. Yeah, and that's okay. So with the 400, how did you, like, did you take out SBA loans or how was that originally funded? That's the HELOC. The HELOC that I drew. So at the time, interest rates were good. It was like a three or four percent HELOC. We were looking at SBA, we were looking what to do. My accountant had just funded his account. He had spread out. He had used a HELOC for his. But he was cash flow. So he paid his off really fast. I was banking on some cash flow. It never came. And we struggled through. We had a really long buildout. It took way longer when we thought it was going to take. And we were open for about a year and a half and then COVID hit. And how was COVID? Like, was it going to fail without COVID or did COVID just like? It was definitely on, it was definitely tight. And we were getting, so in that kind of business, summer camps are a big deal. So it's like a big cash injector. And so you never know. You can't never say never because that summer income is huge, right? So it was definitely struggling. I wasn't taking a draw. It was not making me any money at all. At that point, were you working as well? Are you working at my main job as well? I was double. Yeah, when I finished my main job, I'd go over there. I mean, I had some staff. We had staff. I had staff. I had to train. That was the part of me that loved it. I was training people, helping staff, kids, like running the business. I was a entrepreneur on me. I loved it. Yeah. Cool. All right. Well, I just, that's a good perspective because that will come back later in this conversation. Your assets, you have $51,000 in a 4013B. Is that not including the loan? So it's like, that's actual. That's what's in there. As I pay it back, it goes back up, right? Yeah. Cool. And then you have a 5.29 plan that's not even worth talking about. 200 bucks in there. That's why I'm talking about it. Yeah. Then you have a savings account that has about 30K. High yield, you said it has what kind of interest rate? I think it's like, it's like four and a half, I think right now. There you go, dude. There you go. That's awesome. Okay. And then you have life insurance, which I'm going to include as an asset. And you have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. That's crazy. Seven. Whole life policies. And then you have a term policy, correct? Right. Correct. Yes. Man, we used to get like that. Yeah. And then people on the internet, you know, are going to potentially roast. You or me because they're like, what an idiot. So where we're going to break this down. You have, we won't say the companies, but you have a policy that has a six, six hundred and sixty eight dollars of cash value in an outstanding loan of 33,000. And so where did that? So that's an overfunded policy. It's an overfunded policy. A couple of years in. I use it for that snowball. Some of it, you know, it's, you know, it takes a little time for those things to post. So it's really got put in like two thousand of the right now, but I had just taken some money out of the last premium. So. Okay. And what do you put in per year? That one's ten. Ten K. And then do you know? Yeah. How do you know? Originally. With the, with you funding it, like I'm a nerd when it comes to just seeing if these things are efficient. Where is it at from a, like you put ten thousand dollars in? Are you getting more than ten thousand each year on, on the annual growth? Well, I guess no. No, it was, it's really on that debt snow. I paid off a bunch of debt, paid off some cars. So I'm paying, I mean, I'd have to really look at those numbers and think. I mean, I'm paying almost a, I'm making the payments back to myself. So. Yeah, when you sit back to yourself back to the insurance company. Yeah. And then, um, okay. And then so what I'm curious is when you pay your ten thousand dollar premium, is your cash value, um, increased by more than ten thousand? Oh, like it, I think this should, this next year probably where it's getting pretty positive. So I, this will be the third year. So it might be, it's pretty close, like, third or fourth? You know when the break even is on this policy. On those, most of those, most of those Lafayette ones I have, I think are three or three to five somewhere in there. Okay. So okay, somewhere in five year. Okay, that's not bad. Okay. Great. So you're, uh, you're using this as like, uh, you have a high early cash value and you're using it as like, uh, a savings place. You get multiple benefits of your money, but you're, you're using this as a debt snowball. And you don't have much debt because you've used this to pay off debt. So so now you're making payments back. Um, I'm just curious, what, what car payments did you have? I had a, uh, which car, right? So I had a sedan. It's kind of our family kids car. Okay. Um, that's, I think about four, fifty a month. Okay. And then the other one was, uh, my wife's, uh, kind of SUV, like a similar payment probably like what type of interest rates were there? Well, the latest one I think was like almost, almost five, like four points, something. I got in, but it was still lower than they've been lately. And the other one was probably the same for. Okay. Okay. Um, we're, we'll, uh, after the bankruptcy. Okay. Okay. I was pretty much. Okay. I need the bankruptcy. I really affect your credit. Yeah. I mean, initially, I mean, I'm, it's, I, I want not knock on wood. It's better than ever. I don't know. It's, it's fine right now, but it's definitely something to come back. So it's bad. It's a little bit. Uh, you have a second, you have a second policy that has $11,000 of cash value in it. And, um, and what is your premium on, on your second policy? That one. So that one, the, it's combined supposed to be one and a put about 14,000 in it. Yes. It's kind of covers, gives me some space to build a line and capture my charitable giving. Okay. You put money that you want to give into that. Yeah. Okay. Then you grow stores, give more. I mean, the life, the, the plan is for it to grow. And eventually if, if we do things right, even be a big gift to wherever we want to gift it to at the end of life, but we'll get there. Um, then you have kids policies and you're putting $100 per month per kid. And it looks like you started that last year. Yeah. Um, okay. And then you have your wife has a policy that, um, putting $5,000 in a year looks like there's an outstanding loan of about 7,800 and a cash value of 3,429 bucks. Correct. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Um, we're going to be out recently, by the way. Okay. So I'm debating on just wiping it out and calling. But yeah, because you have, you have 30,000 dollars in a high yield savings account. Yeah. What's the interest rate on, on, on these policies? Oh, uh, 5% on the Lafayette's. Um, I don't want to speak on the one America, but I believe it was like 4.25. Okay. Maybe. We'll just say 5%. Um, so there you go. Okay. Okay. Um, all right. Anything else, it looks like you have a group met life policy and then you have a term policy. I'm assuming the term policy is convertible. It is. Are you guys? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Then it better be convertible. Okay. All right. So perfect. Um, and then you have, um, it looks like you have a living will, you have your health, care, power of attorney, revulable living trust, all that dialed in. You, you visited last in 2020, but you feel pretty good about that. Yeah. Yeah. I do. I mean, I think I need to, I just make sure the trust is always my beneficiary that can get a little weird with the whole living trust thing. Um, but yeah, like you just, it's worthwhile. Have it just to avoid. Yeah. Okay. And it looks like you're, it's very important to you that your kids, um, have, have just mission experience and, and so are you helping pay that or is that going to be like the life insurance policies? And that, that was kind of my, that's, I would like for that to it. We'll see if it gets to that point. One way or another, we'll figure it out. But it'd be an interesting case study to be like the, the life insurance policies that maybe, I mean, this might give you goosebumps, but what if it helped their kids do some things, education, mission wise, like that could be, that could be a really interesting concept. Um, and then, and then your big takeaways, debt snowball, passive income. And, and so anything that I, I missed going through, I, I guess we didn't go through your real estate. You have 20% of your income is going to a payment of $2,635. You have unpaid balance of four, a 456,000, with an interest rate of 5.6%, which is pretty good, um, with a market value of 644,000. So you have approximately about $187,000 of equity in your home. Yeah. Your home right now, like, is it something that you see yourself staying in? Yeah, that was the antenna. I mean, we bought it new and it served us well. I mean, it's where I got the cash to fund that first, that franchise, that's what we use the key lock to fund it. So, uh, we, the reason the balance is a little higher now is because I merged that back with my original mortgage. Yeah. So that's, that's the tough, uh, that's the tough thing when it comes to like helping people when it comes to like money is everyone's indifferent. Like some, you could look at one person that uses a HELOC or a life insurance loan and they look like a genius and you look at other people that do the same. And it's the exact opposite. And so it really for me, it's, yeah, we're going to, we're going to look at efficiency, but really there's one thing that's really rolling in my head when I think about your financial situation and it's what is that activity? What is that activity going to be because you know probably better than anybody that life insurance in itself is not a great thing to just have solely not investment. It's not an investment. And so I think it's, uh, I think what I see you doing is you're in a capitalization phase in your life and it really is going to be like, where is that, where is that money going to be like, where is that money going? And that's what's going to be like, that's where we could take you through like the investment DNA process of being like, okay, what is that? Because we just got burnt doing, you know, franchise. So maybe it's not a franchise or maybe it is in knowing what you know or maybe it's real estate or maybe it's that activity. But what is, what are your thoughts as relates to that? Is there anything that jumps out to you when it comes to what that activity is? Because for me, I see you as, um, like you're in a really good place. Like you don't have bad debt, which Dave Ramsey would be like, great job. But like, it feels like, all right, we're starting, we're kind of starting over a kind of deal. And the cool thing about where the time that we live in is you don't have to spend the next 40 years or 50 years, like doing the traditional way. Like you've already thought outside the box. Like the fact that you have so many life insurance policies that are overfunded means you're willing to think outside the box. So the big thing that we need to do is start buying income and I'll take you through an exercise in a second. But I just want to know, is there an activity that you're interested in that you're like, I would love to do this. And this is going to be a thing that unlocks the ability to not have to work at age 60. Yeah. I mean, there's a couple. Um, one is I, I realize this goes back to my roots a little bit with my parents. I do feel that real estate, I, that's something I need to get involved in somewhere in me over the other. Uh, I know it can also be predicted. And it's not always the right time. But I, I think there's, that's definitely one way. Um, I would be lying to you. I've, I've also connected with some people recently. So I'm getting in a little to e-commerce, which kind of suits my mindset a little bit. Yep. Kind of a data oriented. Like Amazon FBA to a Sanazon FBA. Okay. And I'm sure you're be careful. But I think there's, I know people that are making money at that. I actually have a good friend of mine that does that and I, I can connect you offline if you'd like. Um, and I know quite a few people that have lost money doing Amazon FBA. So I think it, it doesn't make Amazon FBA good or bad. Just like it doesn't make real estate good or bad or franchises good or bad. But I've definitely seen both sides. Yeah. I can definitely say a, uh, a lot of it is just what your products are. You can't, you can't be tied to always one product. So that's true. Yeah. We're looking at that. So, um, how much money are you saving on annually? Because I know in your life insurance policies are some flexibility there. But how much money on an annual basis if you had to look back last year, are you actually setting aside? This is where it gets interesting because I feel like I overcomplicated my finances the last of years as I was trying to mix velocity banking to IBC like, yeah. But I'm shooting for 20%. I am like, with Dom and you're, when you guys when I was really using spalsies, that's what I'm shooting for. I really feel like 20%. So it's, it's, and we're going 20% off of your income or your household income. Probably I would say for my own like, because I, I would say I'm, I, in a particular world, I'd be getting 20 to 25,000 as savings a year is what I'd be looking for. Okay. So, so we'll, we'll stay for right now because it is a little bit confusing looking at your, your situation. We'll say that you're saving, um, 30,000. And, and, and, yeah, maybe okay. We'll say 25. We'll say 25. Um, and so let me do this in real time. So you're making 155. You're saving 25, meaning you are, your consumption is 130. Um, and, and so if we look at one 130. So my question is 130,000. If you had some magical thing that was kicking out 130 with inflation, is that something like tell me about like, tell me about that? Is that number like, Hey, because technically we wouldn't have to save anything if we had something spitting out cash flow for the rest of our life that we, that finance that intentional life. Does 130 increasing with inflation like, does that, would you be, would that be like the minimum from a standpoint of like, we could, that's doable? I mean, when you talk about that, I mean, that's like life changing stuff that I like there. That's, that's taking what you're, you're getting now and just, I mean, the, the flexibility to do what you want to impact the world and all of this kind of, that's just huge. Okay. Everyone's different. Some people that, for me, for me, for me, for me. Yeah, be like life 130, that's like, and that's where it's like, I like the intentional living concept is like, some people need a million dollars a month. That's who am I? What I'm trying to do is, I never want to put people in a box, but I want to like create like a game plan. So we have 130 and we actually have a calculator. I'll show this to you. It's, it's a, it's an assessment on our website. Let me share my screen. We do, we're doing age 60. We're initial amount right, right now. What do you have on your assets? 80, I'll just say 80 just for now. Yeah. You're saving 25,000 a year. Okay. So this is a better wealth assessment and all this is doing is it's, is, I'm just using this from an income standpoint to show you from an income standpoint. So if we take 155, we just say this is going to increase your 43, so 43 to age 60. So and we're, we're increasing this by 3% and we're just saying, okay, this is, and we're not including social security and all that other stuff, but this is essentially, this is input output. This is like just modeling what someone's currently doing. And obviously, you know, with what you're currently doing, it's, it's not like we need to start thinking differently. And so at age 60, your consumption of, because I'm, your consumption of 130, we would need to buy 214,000, let's just round up to 215,000 dollars a year, increasing with inflation. So here's the reality is majority of people that don't even feel like they're behind, they're behind the typical financial planning world is a horrible space to be in because no one's talking about income and majority of people that have their half a million, million dollar portfolio, it's not going to buy them a fraction of what they think it's going to buy. And so the math equation, because I, because I really, I'm going to actually do something I've never done on naked numbers here, I'm going to start drawing, which could be, we could be in for some trouble here. Here, let me draw here. Part of what I love so much about this is just, it's just fun to game, game plan. Yeah. Okay. So here, so if 215 is like, is like the number, where's my pen? Okay. So we want to get, the goal is to get to, let's just say like 225, now there can be a couple of things that can be true with this number. This doesn't have to always be passive. I would argue that retirement is not in the Bible anywhere. The goal should not necessarily be to retire. Okay. But the important thing is we don't want to have to work. So the interesting thing is if we just did this typical way, and we said the 4% rule, you know, and we, we did this and we, we divided this number, this two, two, 15 and divided by 0.4. You're ready for this. You would need a 5.3 million dollar portfolio. And it's a big old nest egg. Okay. My question is, that's just for most people watching, this is just not like, this is the strategy. And yeah, we could have an argument. Some people say this is 3%, some people if you do proper planning, you could maybe get up to 6%. But the reality is, this is a pretty daunting number. And you, it would pretty much be impossible or irresponsible. Like you could save all your money. And it would be hard to get to. So all the people like the Dave Ramsey and all the all the well-meaning people that just will say, like, you know, save more and invest all this stuff. Like I just look at and go, like, what's the end result? Future cash flow. And like, it's one thing if you're 20, and that's the strategy you want to go. But there's so, so we got to start thinking differently. And, and really, this is the way that I'm seeing your, your, yourself. So this is, this is you and your family. And I'm thinking, okay, right now your input, your, this is your input, your time, you have your time, relationships and other things, you're producing as a family, you're producing 150,000. My first question is, with your time and expertise, how do we increase that number? Just, just questions, you know, and, and they're, they're just not a right or wrong. It doesn't even, but my first question in, in a, in a coaching relationship, as I'm saying, okay, is there, is there something in the IT space that you could potentially do to make yourself more valuable? Is there a side gig that doesn't take crazy amounts of risk? Is there, and, and you guys might find that like, hey, we're, no, the answer's no. I, I've talked to some people that are like, we're, our income is like, we're max, we're not willing to do anything more, which is fine. But like, I want you to know that it would be, we could have all kinds of conversations about part two, which we'll have in a second. But one of the things that could radically change your life is if you make more, but it's maintain your current standard of living. Okay, so that's my first question is, how do we increase, increase this? Now, the second question is, from this money coming in, it's, it's going to places where I'm giving you the benefit of down saying you're saving 25k. Yeah, you're being kind to, yeah, I mean, and again, like, this is where you wonder why people work with us day in and day out. It's, we, we give the accountability. So then that's means 130 is going out. Now, now some of this is, you don't really have bad debt, spending wise. Are you guys, you know, in California, like, are you guys spending a lot of money, or is that not, not really a, I mean, yeah, I mean, let's be honest, I think for the average person, we don't think, we always think, well, we can always spend more, or someone else is spending more, but I mean, I, I'm always cautious because the truth is, I think we could always be more efficient with our money. Yeah, that's true. But my dad always like to say, there's no point in having the money if you can't spend some of it. Yeah, yeah. So here's what I would, here's what I would do is, I would do it's do spending spending thing and anything that I mentioned, we can give you resources for. I would do a spending exercise with you and your wife and just be like, hey, what are our fixed, what are our variable expenses? And are we spending money on things that we value? I would look at debt, and I've already looked at your debt, doesn't seem like there's much there. So congrats. But like, I mean, I wouldn't pay off the card at, you know, like I, so we can talk about that in a second, but you know, it, I think you guys for, for what it is, you guys are in a good place. And I would look at taxes, and especially being in California, I think it would be well worth you understanding from a tax perspective, where, where's where we at for, and is there something, even if we did a side job, could I write off some things in our house and all of that? And I think from a tax perspective, this is what I look at, but it might, you, we might find some efficiencies here, but I think really, my mind say goes, if we could figure out a way to make this number bigger, and keep this number the same, obviously taxes are going to affect a little bit. Like, this number really here, it's like, we're not going to, the traditional way of how much money you need to save, we've already approached that it's like, that's not beneficial. But the more money we can save, obviously, the better, because I see the more money saving as like a resource. So now the whole concept of the Internet banking, you are funding life insurance policies, okay? And in this life insurance policies, you're getting, you know, conservative growth, you're getting lots of benefits, you're getting a death benefit, you're getting safety, getting your money's very liquid early on, you're getting other benefits, and it's protecting your family, so legacy is important. And we could probably argue when you factor in all the benefits, you're getting six or seven percent rate return on your money. People will ask Caleb where do I get that? I'm literally looking at it and adding all the benefits to death benefits, chronic illness riders, to the actual growth of compounding, the fact that you have access to your money, and the fact that it's grows, tax advantage, and so you live in state of California. So you could make the argument that it's anywhere from five to 10 percent when you factor in all those things. Still not going to change your life, but it's, but it's a place to store and I like the fact that you've set this up, and I think it's great. So then the real question is, I have money building up in these policies. The real question is, I have access to use this money for let's just say 5 percent. Just to make it simple, I'm going to say 5 percent. 5 percent control costs. So when I think of 5 percent control costs, it's costing me money to control my money. So where I use this money, I need to earn greater than 5 percent. Because if I pay 5 percent to earn three, that's a negative 40 percent on my money. They've had a recent other big benefit if you're doing that, right? So, and this is where I think, this is where like this is for you, but also for the people watching. The reason I'm not a fan of using your policy to pay off car debt is you, yes, it made sense financially because you paid 5 to earn, to pay off something at six. In the grand scheme of things, the opportunity costs, because you don't have unlimited money, you're unable to say yes to something that could create that much more. So it's just something that I think of everything from whether it's a debt or an asset I go, I try to put it in the same pot and be like, should I pay this off or should I invest? And so some people are like fans of paying off mortgages and stuff with their policy, and I just mathematically, I don't understand it. But even if it made sense financially, we have to think opportunity cost. And what we need to do is we need to put our money in activities. I don't know if that's the right way to spell activities, but you get the point. We need activities that create cash flow. And at the end of the day, we need to, like the number, whether it's active or passive, needs to be 200 plus thousand. Okay. So this is where this is where the mentality is like, what is this going to be? And how can this money ultimately feel some of this? But also don't discount the time, the wisdom, the good looks, you name it. Of this, like this person's going to make a break, this whole model. A lot of people devalue themselves, but the money is going to be a tool that this person's going to be able to use to create more. And the cool thing about this is as we create this number, some of it will be active, some of it will be passive. And I don't like, I use the word leverage versus passive, because I don't, I don't have a negative view of leverage. And I think leverage is any time you're using a person, a resource, dollars to be able to create something, not that we're using somebody, but it's like you want to leverage your resources. I think it. So all that to say, this is a huge question mark. And this is where I would be thinking, okay, what, what, I would be looking at, and this is where the investor DNA comes in, I'd be looking at, okay, what am I, what am I, like, what am I naturally good at skills, skills? One thing that I want to just point out is, if you understand IT, the world of AI, I believe every single company needs to be leveraging AI and needs to understand IT. So there's a world where you can use, you can take your skill set and potentially make a ton of money because of how you leverage that technology. That's, that's, that's one. And, and just going down the list of looking at your skill sets, looking at your money, which you have, but you don't have a ton. So it's like looking at your resources and saying, okay, like, I can't deploy a million bucks, but I, but so where's the best bang for my buck? And, and you have time and, and you're disciplined, and there's other things that are like Mr. Ironman and other things that you're like, I, if I'm talking to you, it's going to be different from the other person. For sure. And, and then ultimately, we need to buy cash flow. And everything should really be measured in, in, in cash flow. And this is not investment advice, but I would be, I would not be saying yes to anything using your policy or deploying any capital. If it's not, if it's not really like, I would rather have your money sitting, not being deployed than having it tied up, and it not being available for you to say, yes, whether it's now or three years from now. So I, I'm really weird. I look at life insurance as a emergency opportunity. And then if I'm going to say yes, it's going to be a heck yes. I'm not tying up liquidity and control for average returns. For me, I'm really clear that business, business for me is the most fulfilling. It's, it, we cash flow, like we're able to create lots of cash flow. We're able to create impact. So it checks a lot of boxes. And so for me, I look at how do I invest in my own business and then future businesses that help me serve other people, but it ultimately talk about leverage cash flow, like it's there. But there's some people, there's a lot of people I know that do that through real estate. There's some people that do alternative investing. I think for you, you need to be able to take some type of skill set and incorporate it into whatever, because if not, I just don't see the long-term returns being what needs to happen to be able to help you with intention living. Because right now, I don't think 60, not being able to work at all is going to be something that should be your goal. It should be like as soon as possible loving every moment of your life and knowing that you're financing that. And I think that has a lot to do with active. So I did a lot of talking, but gone before, but I just, but I just, this is how this is the framework of how I would, how I would be thinking. And so I'm going to stop and hear your thoughts, questions. I get fired up. Like this fires me up. I'm very much in that same place. I've looked at a lot of different opportunities coming out, this idea of, and I've spent some time doing some research. What is my investor DNA? I love that term because I think it really is true. Like too often we just look at what somebody down the street did and we try and recreate it, but it's not really our skills or what we have. So there's some influences to say that. You say it too. It's like know yourself, know your skills and know who you are. So I've been spending some time on that. I have a couple things in the works I am working on. We know who's how they're going to work out. But I 100% know that how this is. Let me tell you a little story. I had a really hard, hard talk with my wife last year and it almost kind of took her back a little bit. And the sense that she said, you know, I knew we had this banker saying everything, but like the way I was talking, I was talking about listen, here's some, we need to seek passive income. This idea, like we, it's not going to be enough. I had that, I've had that realization. I know it. I'm trying to share with her that with my family that you can't just save your way to wealth. Yeah. You can't save your way well. So we were talking about that and she kind of said, well, I thought we were fine. You know, I thought we're doing what we need to be like everything's right. And I said, the truth is we're doing okay with what we have. What we're not doing is we're not like that emphasis for so long for us has been saved to for wealth. But that's not really where we need to go. So I agree 100% with what you're saying. And I'm on board. I would be lying if I said that the big one of the biggest challenges for me has been kind of as an IT brain that personally analyzes. Yeah. I in the past, it was great to open that business because it helped force me to get better making decisions. But analysis paralysis is a real thing. And especially for me, compounded with getting burned in a business, yeah, that that has made it this last year has been really opening. I finally feel like I'm coming back to life a little bit. But it was about like two years of just like being gun shy. Like, which was nice that I found on the RBC because like you said, and I feel the same way, okay, one thing I one thing I have to do right now is a cumulative like I need to capitalize. Yes, like that. I shouldn't say cumulative, but like because that's kind of can have bad connotations to you with that capitalization 100%. Yeah. Regardless what I do, I know that's the most that's what I need to be doing right now. Yeah. Regardless whatever I do. So my mind's always pay off these cars and things that kind of free up that cash flow. But I also realize now like you already came off and it's like, well, let's pay now. At least I'm putting the money back. But yeah, it's your right. Yeah. If I, you know, I just spent 20 on a car. If I had that 50, then there's an opportunity to get 50, you know, no investing or whatever 12% or whatever it is, you know, I mean, like, how much money would you and your wife feel come like good about in an emergency fund? Because what I'm about to share with you is actually like the most simple thing that I've shared on the show. But it's like, it's I'm so clear that this is what you guys need to hear. So what would that emergency fund be? Well, I grew up in my early years doing that, you know, start with your one in the three to six months. I mean, I'd love that a year's worth. I know there's some other advocate that and I kind of love that I didn't. It sounds good. But, you know, I don't know. The safety guy me is that I don't know if it's always realistic, especially where I'm at right now. That's kind of why I like IBC though, because I feel like I can have a little bit of that emergency fund in those policies as well. But so, but if you had to answer the question like, um, 100,000. Yeah, I danced around a little bit. I would say 100. I would play. Yeah. Okay. So what I would do is I would be very, very careful to I don't not think the mindset right now is leverage your money. I think it's leverage your skill set and time. And I think there's a lot of ways to make money without risking any money. Okay. So number one thing that I would I would do is have the conversation look at your time as from a portfolio standpoint and ask a question, how can I how can I create more value that whole exercise? I have a value leveraging framework that I can give you. And it's, it's it's a lot of fun. So that would be like number one, all the money again, I would continue to save as much as possible. And I would look at your portfolio into two things. E stands for emergency. Oh, stands for opportunity. I would build up your 100k emergency. You can do that in a policy. And obviously it's it's, you know, there's going to be benefits and like the way that you're saving, you could do that pretty, pretty quickly. Okay. And it's not like that. It's not like you can't say yes to anything, but like really like part of the emergency is everything gets better when you have that foundation. So step number one is is figure out how we can create more. And but really reverse engineering saying, I'm not going to leverage my money at this point. I'm an leverage my greatest asset time. You like there's other things that I think are, I think are going to be really key because there's a ton of opportunities to make money right now. And there's a ton of ways to make money. Maybe it's not even using money. So that's that's and then number two, build that emergency. But number three is once you have overflow, this is opportunity. This is where it, you know, if I had to make this green, this is where this is where I think of the fund. Like this is the money that I'm, I'm like deploying and the whole goal of this is to be fuel on, I don't know what happened, but to, to, to be fuel for whatever I want to be doing. And I think in the next one, two, three years, you're going to have way more clarity than you have today. And this fuel will be able to double down on what you're doing. I think the thing to be wary of is anytime someone's giving you a return for money, it's going to be an average returns, which is, which is fine. Like there's opportunities, but you're also taken on risk. I like the idea of using this as a fuel to, and I don't know if you have 100% clarity. Now, I think in the year two, you will, but the cool thing is you can start today on these two things. And over the next 20 years, you like easily, and I want this to be an encouragement. I believe in less than 10 years, you could, you could, you could have 200 to 300,000 dollars coming in. And, and it could be because of this mindset. I can say that confidently because I know people, like personally, I'm a case study myself of like getting clear in a couple things. It doesn't take, it doesn't have to take 30, 40 years to be able to do that. And so that's, yeah, that's my, that's my, like, infinite banking is awesome. But I think, like, I think sometimes we can get the analytical brain can get so caught up on like the being efficient with our policy. And we're we're zooming out and we're putting a lot of time and energy on things that are actually not going to move the needle in our life. For sure. And that's kind of what's is speaking to me right now is, is, I really, like, that's what speaks to me right now. As it relates to that, it's the, what are the actual things that are going to move the needle in your life? It's going to be this and this, but this might come four years. And that should be okay. Yeah. Like that we, you should be okay. Four years from now, if all you do is build up, build up and capitalize knowing that it's, you're not throwing money away because compounding is not going to be something that's going to change your life. It's going to be the injection of cash. It's going to be crashful creation. What are questions? Any, you can, this is a two-way street. You can push back. I had, I've had someone on the show. It was a blast. We were, I was going at him because I was giving him like, again, this is not insurance advice, investment advice, legal advice. I'm not a counselor. I'm not a psychiatrist. Don't sue me, please. Hopefully that this is inspiring you when you're watching or listening. But I had someone like, I could tell, like, didn't want to listen to me. And that's fine. But we had a good conversation. Actually from that conversation, we actually unpacked some of the reasons why, which is really cool. So what are your, what's your thoughts? And you can ask me anything. You can push back. You can throw a curveball. The floor is yours. No, I mean, I, the one thing, and I, I agree with like what, what you laid out. And I think I like that you're, you include the fact that, yeah, dude, you're still working. I think sometimes it's a little unrealistic in the world. It's like, yeah, you're going to be fully passive like this. Like you need to look at the whole, the whole self, the whole body, the whole, the whole everything, right? And, and I think that's really important to, and to, and to say that even that growth at four years, it should still be growing. That's a lot, a lot of long, I mean, hopefully, I'd hopefully nothing else, you know, happens. But I mean, I guess I do, I guess I have the policies for my family if something happens to me. So, so you know, I got that right? But, um, um, yeah, I like, I, I know I need, I need to get that passive income. I know it's going to make the difference. I'm actually looking forward to making more policies like those whole idea of I see, if my daughter sees this, I'll say like, I mean, Mike, they're gonna, I hope they have kids. I hope they're blessed with that opportunity. Yeah. And I want, I, I want to be whatever they're going to call me, the guy who helps spread that. I want, I want all my kids to be able to have access to that cash. I mean, it's not just for buying a car or whatever, that may be part of it to be more efficient with our money as a family. But like, I want them to be able to like, my parents, is that way able to do that for me to help me out a lot of different things, right? Like, yeah. Our landscaping the backyard, my dad would lend me money at like three percent. We signed a note in everything. I've been talking about money, like, lending from your, you know, um, so that's something I really think of too. Like, is we're talking all this money long term? I've said, I want to leave my kids each a good amount of money. I want them and their families. I don't want it to go out. So, um, the passive income for me, that just, I mean, it's such a, it's such an eye. I always put like, for me, what it does, and may not do this for everybody, I think we all deep down have like our ideas, that question, we've all heard it, right? Like, what do you want to do? What would you do if money was no object? Yeah. I think most people have, like, a talk, but then you quickly within seconds are like, I don't know, well, that's not going to happen. So I'm going to do it. But I truly believe like what we're talking about in this mindset and doing, I wish more people knew it. I truly believe it will be possible. And it may not be exact. I'm a prophetist. They may not be exact, right? Like, but you still have uninterrupted compounding. You still have growth. Like, you may not get there year 50, maybe be 53 or like, quit or you know, the dumb things about like, let's just like make these changes and move in the right direction. And my whole thing is you have one life and so many people are just hedging and not truly living. Yeah. And it's like, what's the cost of not living your life and what's the like, what's the opportunity cost of regret? You know, I don't, there's no calculator that can, that can make that. And the other, the other thing is instead of passive, I would highly encourage you to use the word leveraged. You did say that. That's right. I love it. And here's why is I don't think, I think passive income can also be very discouraging at this point. Like I get what you're saying. I'm gonna say, yeah, I can't get it. But it's like leverage means like, what, how can I leverage what I'm currently doing? How can I leverage my inputs to create? And it doesn't mean I have to wake up to make this thing come in. So some people would call that passive. But I'm thinking like, how do I create systems, websites, relationships, partnerships? How do I create, how do I create that to to make that happen? And that's where I think it's like, yeah, it's like I can take the life coachy fluff because quite frankly, it's fluff. But I also like when I, when I look at the math and stuff, I go like, I mean, we take, we could do the math on like if we reverse engineer, like this is what if I, if I just wanted to do like a, what, what does someone need to save? I could do a calculation and just for fun. I think this would be fun. Like if we needed a $5.3 million nest egg. And let's just say we are starting over. So we need a five, five, three, zero, zero, zero, zero. And we, and you're gonna earn 7%. Let's just say that in 20 years. Your payment would be $130,000 a year. So it's like, all right, typical, typical, like that's impossible. Like that's so like, if we just lay that there's like you need to save more and maybe need to earn more, it's like, yeah, that maybe, maybe everyone's like, yeah, that's what you should do. But like, you're not walking away. Like no one's getting better because of that conversation. And that's just like impossible. That's where my mindset goes. It's like, there's, there's got to be something that shifts because this input output ratio is just not not happening. Have I be a paradigm shift? You've leveraged instead of passive income. Yeah, I mean, maybe there's future and I can't take credit for the concept of leveraged. But like, I definitely am going to write more and create more round leverage cash flow versus passive. I don't think I've ever heard anyone else say leveraged, leveraged cash flow. I don't think I honestly don't think I have. You go to more masterminds and things, the better you have. But yeah, no, it's something that we we very much try to teach around because not not in a scammy investment way, but just more from the mindset way. So anything else, any, any, no, man, I appreciate it. I'm so I still say to this day in terms of infinite banking, because I wish I had heard of it sooner. Not that I don't know. We never know what there's a million choices we could have made that are different. And it's funny. I think I wonder what my life would be different. That's not, I mean, I just mean in terms of having access to cash. If I had used it that way when I funded myself, like, what I have made the same decision, if I had had that cash, right? I had had that accumulate and I had that opportunity to be fun. What I have invested where I did. I'm telling you, no, you never know. I'd say 2020, but like, I would probably say, you know, this is probably a risky one. That rule one, don't lose cash, right? They're the rules. Number one, don't lose cash. Number two, see rule one. Yeah. Like, I probably wouldn't have done it, right? But I mean, that's also what makes the truth is that's what makes me, I think, personally, a better investor, a better financial person in that sense. Like, I've been burned. I took some of that advice for the old school advice and it didn't work out. Certainly, I have friends that it, stuff's worth great, great for, but I look at my failure to their success and I mean, there are so many variables. It's, you know, you, you need to put your money, you need to, money is a resource at the blessing, right? Ultimately, if you're, if you're like me, it's, it's a, it's a resource given to us from our father in heaven to bless your life, your family's life, your community, the world, right? How do you use that resource? And unfortunately, like you said, people get discouraged because we talk about getting this or they're watching the influencer saying this or the life coach or whatever. And they're just like, I can never get that. And I mean, how defeating is that, which is not the intent for me? That's not what it's about at all. We're giving talents, we're giving times to, to make a difference. So I applaud what you're doing. I love, I, I mean, you, I know you get a kick out of you feel passionate about it. That's why you're doing it. You would be doing it if you weren't passionate about it. But yeah, I just, I'm grateful I get to be here and get from the man, the myth of origin. Well, thank you. And I just want to say like, thank you for being willing to come on the show, sharing. Like some, I mean, this is one thing I want to point out. Any time we share publicly, like things that we've messed up on or we look back and lessons, not only are, is that amazing for you to be able to be like, I'm, my identity's not in that. But also, like, there's a ton of wisdom and there's a lot of people that can learn a lot through you. And unfortunately, you're not going to make, you know, you're not going to get a percentage of all the wisdom that people gain from you and what they, that compounds to. But I think it's going back to the quote of, you know, the value for life is how much of it was given away. Like, I want to thank you for being willing. And, and I just want to give a call to action to anyone listening to this or watching this. Like, I'm not, I'm not, that's scary. Like we're, we're going to have a lot of fun. And if you have questions, if you want to do the full naked number experience where you give your financial situation, like the only way that we're going to really move the needle and change what people think is long form conversations because like, there's not just one little like nugget thing that I memorized. Like, it's a conversation. But through that, I really believe that people's lives are going to get changed by listening to this. And so, Brian, I want to thank you for being an early adapter for being someone that has been a huge, I won't say fan, but advocate for what we're up to. And I look forward to seeing what the future holds. I look forward to meet you in person. And I know the best is yet to come. Excellent. Same here. Thanks, Kellogg. All right.