Infinite Banking Skeptic Challenges Me (Heres My Response)

 If all you cared about was cash on cash arbitrage, using whole life insurance is not something that you should do. So then the question would be, oh, you got me. Why in the world would you use whole life insurance versus something like this? Cameron, welcome to the Better World Show. Thank you. So what we pride ourselves in is having people that agree or disagree on the show talking about their experiences. And you've made a couple of comments. And one of the things that caught our attention is you've worked on the inside of some mutual whole life insurance carriers. You've also seen firsthand, infinite banking, maybe the good, the bad, the ugly. And I know that you don't 100% agree with infinite banking how it's been sold. And as an insider, wanted to come on, share your experiences. I know that you gave me an outline as well. But what I would love is to get a little bit of your backstory. I'm talking like one or two minutes. And then we can dive right into the the cons, slash risk of whole life and infinite banking and dive in from there. And so if you just want to give your name where you're from if you want to, and then maybe your background as a release to insurance, I think it's important for people to know maybe what gives you the potential position to be able to speak on these things. Right. All right. Yeah. Well, well, thanks for having me. I do appreciate, you know, you know, being able to kind of share my side. I never really thought I would be kind of going into the YouTube world and sharing. So, but yeah, my name is Cameron. And then I recently got out of the business. It was my first career, but I was with a lot of different insurance companies or handful for about 11 years. And I really seen like I got started as a telemarketer for about a year. Then it switched to account management policy, older services, underwriting, um, a little bit of accounting and administration. So I really got to see a lot of different things and not of unfortunate to be near a big city. I'm just about 30 minutes north of Chicago. So there's a lot of insurance companies here. And so that kind of how I got my foot in the door with an insurance. And, um, you know, personally, I was kind of climbing the corporate ladder for a little bit. And then I think I got to a point where I'm like, you know, I just, it wasn't that important to me anymore. And I just kind of want to look for a different career. But as I was getting out, I noticed that, you know, I'm more in the social media that a lot of people were talking about life insurance. So it was just, it was very fascinating to see people very interested in something that I've been working on for so long. And just, you know, on some level, it could be boring or just not exciting. And like, oh, wow, people are like really into this. And they're saying, you know, things that like not necessarily wrong. Just like, oh, wow, it's, you know, you're just, you know, it's always interesting. Like when you see kind of a community be like really intrigued with a job to you, it's just like a job. Yeah. And one of the things that you wrote in what you've said to me is you use the word over emphasize and exaggerate, which I don't disagree with. By the way, that's what we popped on. I was like, hey, listen, like I'm coming in super open-minded. Love these conversations. By the way, probably one of my favorite is just to have conversations with people that maybe don't agree on everything. And I think there's so much we can learn. But I agree with you that not just in this space, but in the index universal life space, in the crypto space, almost pick any space you probably can find p-robat over exaggerate and over emphasize things. And I think that's very problematic if people are putting their money or if they're putting them. And he's in the big portion potentially of their financial life is in maybe an over exaggeration. So with that, did you get into insurance just because you wanted to climb the corporate ladder? Did you like the concept of insurance? I mean, how I got in or the idea is that my dad's been in insurance for 30 years and he's close to retirement. I mean, he's been very much on the corporate marketing side. And so it was my first summer freshman year college. And so I just needed a job. And so I had a job at a local insurance agency. Some of my dad knew. And then I went back to school and then just eventually when I was figuring out what type of job I just went back. And then I stayed with it because I was doing well. And then eventually I got other jobs and was able to build a resume. So it wasn't necessarily something I was looking for initially. And then when I got in, I just kind of was building a network of people and just seeing a lot of different jobs and just a lot of different opportunities. Yeah, that's really how I got into it. And you worked, do you want to share the different insurance companies that you worked with? Yeah, there are companies that have done whole life and incident banking. And it's my understanding that you've seen how these things actually work on the back end from a home office perspective. Yeah, yeah. So I'd say kind of on the bigger spectrum, people would hear of state farm, New York life, people that maybe more focus on just like life insurance. They might heard of Illinois Mutual. There's a small one called Elco and then I was with mass mutual for a little bit. And when you say with, you were actually at their corporate. Yeah, you were in that meeting with people selling insurance. You were like, I don't know. I was in like their Chicago office and then working remote, but more associated. I would have all those companies, how many of you have seen quote-unquote infant banking? Because state farm well-known, but I don't think they promote. Nah, I mean they have a whole life insurance product that I don't think anyone super thrilled. Like it's not, it's never talked about as being like super competitive. And I've never seen someone at state farm promote the concept of infant and banking. Yeah, definitely not. There are more like sometimes people would call in or even agents be like, hey, I heard of this. Do we have anything? And it's like, so no, they really did not have anything like that. But the other curious they did because they had these paid up additions, riders, and that's fundamentally how like infant and banking are overfunded whole life. Okay. Well, let's jump into the over emphasized, last exaggerate, upsides and downplaying cons. Why don't you just give your initial thoughts around, I mean, you've been in the space 11 years. Sure, sure. And what I want to say is that, you know, I, more just like, more just consumers that are watching and thinking about this, it's more of that because of course agents. They know a lot of the lane goes. So there might, there's obviously going to be some things I say in explain. And it's not because I know that you don't know the answer just for the consumers watching. Yeah, it's not. So I don't even think that I'm not really coming from side of like, oh, I think this is a bad product and I'm sharing from like, this is why it's a bad. I just think with anything that there's like, there's pros and cons and that sometimes from an agent, they can't really share like the cons from an unbiased. They could do their best and I don't think they're really supposed to. I think there's nothing wrong with saying like, this is the best and why I think it's the best. It's just that you hear a lot, you know, even agents, they would send because I did a little bit of agency support. So I got familiar with quality and so people would call in and they would say, this is the type of code I want and this is how I've been marketing it. So you would hear like a lot of things, you know, I would see pitches like, you know, imagine if there was a savings account with a guarantee rate of return, you never lose your money, it grows at least 4%. It has creditor protection, upside potential. It's a bond alternative, your emergency fund, it's your opportunity fund, it proc keeps, you know, a state funding. So no one goes after your money, you know, also has long-term peer funding in it. So you hear a lot of like this language of, you know, all the upsides that could do it. Oh, it's a college savings account. So like you hear all that language and you're like, well, what does that, you know, actually mean? And so, yeah, I mean, I think just kind of, you know, when you look at some of like the cons of, like, well, how is it really an emergency fund and, you know, comparing it to like a savings account, because like, you know, you, you have different things. So like with insurance, you have the required premium and it could take years to break even. So, you know, depending on how you structure it. So I just think that when it's like, oh, this is a great savings account. And then it's like, well, you know, I break it down like there's, there's premium involved that's required. And it's not like your savings account, like at a chase where it's like, okay, I stop right paying my savings account. I still have my savings account. So, so I don't know, just kind of, that's kind of some of my gist of like, there's the pitch and then kind of breaking down like, you know, what does that mean? Yeah. So let's let's dive into first of all structure. When you structured policies, what type of like what, what were like the first year liquidity, like how much cash value would be in a typical policy that you would see of people that are doing this? And, and then we can unpack all the things that you talked about. I'm just, I want to, I want to get an understanding of like how you design policies or your understanding of, of max funding life insurance. Yeah, I mean, the, like the ones I, I seen like whatever department I was in, where I was looking at policies, a lot of it was at base policies. So it was very much going to the totality of the policy. And so I mean, I think that, you know, whole life where it's different from term, you know, term is just a here cost. And then when you have whole life, there's really two components that I don't think people really think like the, like, you know, the, how was this created? Like, you know, how is the sausage made? So yeah, well, and in a whole life, how would you design like what would be like the base, which would be required premium versus like the PUA? Yeah. So I'd say for agent, yeah, for agents doing that, you know, you might see like a base of 3,000 and then the PUA like 7,000. So it's like, like a 30% base. Yeah, you would see that. And then, you know, what would it typically be the break events and your back when you, design policies? I mean, it really depends. I would say if I were to just give like an average, an average, I would just say maybe like the seven year mark. Yeah, because I've seen it earlier, I've seen, you know, three or four years. I've also seen eight or nine. So that's why I just said seven. I think like seven was really like where you see like the pure break event. Yeah. And your big problem is that, you know, people would like pitch these may, would they pitch it as like an amazing investment or you'd say they just pitch it as like this amazing save the count. But really, it's a savings account has different pros than like there's different. Yeah. And here's the thing Caleb. I'm not in those sales appointments. You know, I'm not, yeah, I don't know how long they worked with a client or, you know, how many hours or what they told them exactly because, you know, someone could watch your, you know, like the game of telephone like someone could watch your content be sold on it by a policy for me. And then they're communicating with their friends about how awesome it is. And then they could say something like, Oh, this is the best, you know, investment you'll ever make. Right. And so you didn't say the word investment, but they interpreted that way because, you know, they heard, and then you use this to borrow against money. Yeah. So speaking so when I worked in policy holder services, that's where I would get a lot of phone calls. And so I would get, you know, a lot of people that were wanting to cancel their policy or cancel it and for different reasons. And so I want to focus more on people that have these overfunded whole lives versus you well and base policies. So I, there was quite a few people that when they wanted to cancel, it was I was led to believe that this was a pure savings account. I was led to believe that this was a savings alternative. The way maybe like a money market is not alternative. And so there's just like a lot of, you know, yeah, they're just like kind of a lot of problems when it comes to, you know, people that bought this and then they were, you know, they're asking me and I'm seeing what I could do as far as flexibility. Like, okay, we could take off this rider. And then this is what you owe. And then when they're said, well, I was told it was flexible, they're thinking flexible the way you and I could be flexible with our checking and savings account. We as we decide what goes in and what goes out. And so yeah, it was very, you know, disheartening to see that. And then, you know, I mean, I'm not like the compliance department. So sometimes if someone wants to make a complaint, I got, you know, and I can't get involved with the agent because that's just got my role. And so, you know, they were said, well, my agent led me to believe this is really how it works and that, you know, it's my fault for not managing loans or managing premium. And so, you know, I just thought that was not good. And so that was, that was very, and that was a common thing with the overfunded. Sometimes people were happy about it. What I, what I found like the people that were most happy about cash value were the clients that didn't know they had it or then understand it. So they would be saying like, oh, I'm thinking about doing this or then like, well, why am you on the phone? This is your cash value. And they're like, well, what do you mean? I'm like, yeah, they're, oh, wow, that's so, you're not told the moon. And then you get surprised, like, oh, I have cash value that I could utilize. Yeah, it's very much like fine $20 in your pocket after doing laundry. Yeah, that's such a great. I think there's, I think there's a lesson that can be learned from this. And here's the lesson is don't ever pitch something. And in, in a way, this is insurance first and foremost. And if you're trying to sell it as other than insurance, first and foremost, it's that's problem. And if people don't value the insurance aspect, they don't value long term what a permanent life insurance policy could do for you, then incident banking or whatever you want to call it bank on yourself, cash flow banking. I wrote the book called the end asset, whatever, whatever thing that you want to call it is, is false flat. If you don't value insurance as insurance, and I think one of the biggest problems that I see in space is people, and I've done this in the past as well, almost like undersell the insurance so much, where you're like, hey, I don't even care about the death benefit. I just want these for the other benefits. And you could make the argument, even if the death benefit went away, there's still other advantages to to that. But, but I think it's like, I think we all do ourselves a disservice and then it, then it may be expectations are maybe high. And there's anything that I think we need to do that our job. It's like, talk about the principles and then ask a question, what type of asset classes help check those boxes? And here's the negative thing about using permanent, we'll just use whole life, for example. The negative thing is, it's not as flexible as a same as a calendar or a checking account. That's that can be a negative thing that can also be a positive thing long term to do, to be a forced, say, like a forced bill. But I will say that's a negative thing for this point. Now, my caveat to that is how you structure policy matters and there, I mean, you can structure it way more flexible than 30% base. But we'll just, so I think there's how you structure it that matters. I think the expectations of how much cash value you borrow against also matters, something that I'm not a big fan on of getting people to use their policies or make them feel like they should use their policies for all these kind of things. That's a question I want to ask you about some of the crazy things that people would call end to want to use their policies. I think that's a, something that's not good for the insurance companies, not good for the consumer if they're like looking at it like a bank. But we wonder like why people do that? Well, when you call it a bank or if you compare it to a savings account, that's maybe why people are turning by groceries with it. And so like that's that's a number one. Number two is you, it takes you in your case seven years. You know, we have, it can take seven years. We've had policies, you know, break even in your three or four. But you know, it could take a couple of years before you have more money than what you put in. And so when you compare that to a high yield savings account, you have to understand from a cash value like access standpoint, you have more money in a savings account. We'll just say for the next seven years. That's that's something that needs to be factored in. And if all you cared about is cash on cash arbitrage, which I've said multiple times should not be something that anyone in infinite banking opens their mouse about because it doesn't really happen that way. That's that can be that can be problematic. And then not a room qualifies, it's actually insurance. And as much of a benefit that could be not everyone qualifies for that. Would there be other cons other than what I mentioned? Well, I was kind of mentioned that kind of thought of it. I was I was working in a different office when this memo got out of the mass mutual memo. And to me, it was a very um, I mean, to me, I it was a little comical when it came out because it was not, you know, the state or Fed, Reg, Reg, Reg, you know, Reg, just like, you know, coming out and like playing it was more like almost having a parent talk to their kids and be like, listen, like, you know, we're not going to be playing up with these shenanigans because it really was people were calling in like, like they were a bank, you know, and in this, it's not a bank. So, so I mean, and there's a lot of like administrative costs and management to, you know, go over loans. So yeah, just maybe think of like, I remember when that memo came out from mass mutual and they were like, we're not doing sending war. Yeah. They were, they were, they had strong words that were like, hey, we do not want to be associated with infant and banking because again, the word bank. And like, like some people on have you and I have probably seen some pretty crazy pitches where it's like, wow, it's like they, you're really looking at this like a bank account. And some people teach that like all your money should flow to this and they get super aggressive early on. I'll tell you another thing that I'm not a fan of is when people try to be super aggressive early on and try to give as much money to flow towards insurance. And again, like, I'm a, I'm a huge fan of life insurance. Huge. But I also, I have it. I don't try to like over hype it or over emphasize it. And I feel like that is very problematic when you do that. And I understand the the product. And when you're working with somebody who has maybe a less understanding, it's our duty to make sure that no safe product is positioned to put them. I you're client less safe. So in other words, some people design these safe products, but the way that they have it, they have it funded, create it where they like need to fund each year these high premiums. And if they don't, then their policy could be at jeopardy. And then they're, their max is aloneing out their policy, which also loses a lot of flexibility because if you have no ability to loan against your cash value, because it's all loaned out. And you're, you have these big premiums, you're one bad or two bad years of income away from potentially losing your policy. And that's something that I think we're going to more of from people that have aggressive funding strategies. And I think the aggressive approach where it really hurts is because where I will see, see, you know, or hear about agents kind of going through the cons or the downside or what can you do for the downside that they they over promote the reduced paid up plan or they over, you know, emphasize that you could take the ride the PUA rider off. But when you do all that, it does reduce all your benefits. So it reduces the death benefit and obviously your cash value is going to be lower than what it way I would do if you keep funding it. But but also, Caleb, I think people don't, you know, when they when they're going through like, you know, kind of the pitch, I was saying that over her they go through all that one thing they got the the pitch is about critical ill-loons, they're like living benefits. When your death benefit goes down, also those critical ill-loons benefits goes down. So when you're over emphasizing someone, you know, barring against their policy and a deal goes better, goes, you know, south or it takes longer than what's expected. And then they're in a position where they might have to, you know, do reduce paid up or take some of the riders off it does, you know, that selling point that when they sat in front of the agent and they were told, oh, this is your long-term care fund. This is the bond on alternatives. Suddenly that, you know, whatever the total six hours you spend with the agent, you know, it kind of goes out the door because like, oh, I'm leveraging this. I might have to reduce it. And then that means that, you know, the cancer, the heart attack stroke, all those living benefits they get reduced to. So I think that's where that's problematic in the pitch because, you know, suddenly like, it's not this policy that's doing three different things. It's a policy that's doing like three or rift takes things and, you know, what you see in your horrific things because I, and a reduced paid up is when, again, when you don't want to continue to pay premiums. And a lot of times what you do is you have your death benefit, your cash value. When you reduce pay up, the death benefit drops pretty significantly. And then no more premiums are required. And every year your cash value and death benefit still increase. But what you're saying is the death benefit dropping, there's other consequences for instead of having a five million dollar death benefit, you have a million. There's, there's, that's a, that's just, you know, alleged example. But that there's a, that there's obviously consequences for that. But what do you like, I still, when I was doing all those benefits, they're still available. Yeah. Yeah. But it's not like you can't replenish it. So what I mean is like once you exercise the, you know, you don't for unfortunately, someone has an heart attack. They use that and it's great. But then suddenly, you know, they bet because it's being exercised from the death benefit, all that premium that was going to the cash value, all that reduces. So then suddenly this one policy really is instilled for forming as, you know, the savings, the emergency, the critical illness, the, the legacy, like it's kind of everything is being reduced. If that makes sense. Yeah. I think I'm unpacked that a little bit more because, and again, maybe you think I'm crazy. I think as long as people understand that cash flow is cash flow, and if you're putting a dollar into a life in Transpals, you and you're in your 60s and you have three or four dollars that increase your cash value, part of me wonders why you would stop. But some people may want to stop just because they don't like the, the mental aspect, they don't want to fund other things after a certain period of time. But reduce paying up is not necessarily the plan. It's just, it's just an option. And I think it's a good option. And you're, it's almost like you're like, Hey, if you reduce pay up, there's some negative consequences that come with that. I hope would be before someone not reduce pays up their policy, they would know the pros and cons between like, Hey, I'm not going to be funding anything more. And for obvious reasons, the death benefit is going to come down. Yes, there's going to be some other things that maybe we'll be off the table because my death benefit comes down. But I don't have to pay any premiums on the point. I be paying premiums actually as a good thing once your policy is coming. But not everyone sees the paying premiums is actually a contribution. They see it as an expense. And so I guess on pack. Yeah, I see that. And that just that goes back to the individual because I think, you know, everyone's their savings goals and plans are different over time. So, you know, I might have a certain number says, I maybe it's $30,000 or $40,000. But as I get older, that need changes or my, you know, I'm setting money aside for savings and then saying that for, you know, investing because when you really get to the distribution, you might just want to be more in the, I just want to spend my money and enjoy my money or I don't really have, I don't need that for any come because I'm in, you know, I'm in retirement or, you know, maybe I'm living in a retirement home and I don't need that buffer to buy a car because I don't, I'm not really going to drive that much. So I mean, I don't really think like the reduced paid up is bad. I just think that sometimes people might be in a position where they have to do that. Like I said, where more like an investment went is going wrong or they actually locked money on investment. So now they have all these, you know, they have to deal with the loan, the entry, the compound interest I'll all, I don't think most people really understand the loan aspect and that it does comp. Yeah, I mean, loan, loan interest, loan interest compounds if you don't pay it. Playing some like any, any, any decision that we do compounds at time, you know, and that's, that's another thing that I think it's misspoke in or miss pitch to, they almost make it sound like your cash values compounding, but your loan interest isn't and that's not true because after it will compound, if you don't pay, pay the interest, I think a better way to just talk about it is you have an unstructured loan. You have options, but sometimes options aren't great and it can allow you to maybe not make the right decision and instead of paying back that loan, you're buying something else that maybe is not an asset and now your whole life insurance policy is enabling you to make bad decisions. It's not the whole life policy's fault, it's your fault, but you have an asset that isn't more enabling than maybe if that money was lost. And that's where I was, I would go into some of the agent cap tics where, you know, it becomes kind of blaming the customer and like, well, you know, you didn't use your policy correctly and now, you know, they they're suddenly they changed their mind on the philosophy of infinite banking and then they did buy liabilities, but then they have this, you know, this policy, yeah, it's loan and all these other issues where, you know, things go bad, like, you know, it's not very empathetic and I'm not saying you're doing this, but the agent's like, it's not very empathetic for the agent to be like, well, you're not doing it right because I mean, we know the MLM culture of like people that failed out of the MLM and then it's like, well, it's not your, your it's not the MLM's fault. You just didn't, you know, undo things. Let me us where the risk comes. Yeah, let me let me draw some things. I would love to honestly get your honest feedback on this and and then you can kind of give your two cents because it's very similar to maybe part of the pitch that you're saying that you don't don't like, you know, you share my screen. So this is this is something I've used this drawing a couple times is this will be this will be you Cameron. Hello and you know, camera number one, you have money and you could invest that money. I mean, technically hold on. Let's just let's just say you your dollar can do two things. It can either be spent or it can be saved. Okay, see there, spend on taxes, coffee, lifestyle, computer, it's like this is this is this is lifestyle. This is like cost of living your life. Say money saved. This is obviously a verb. Hopefully the money saved set aside is invested and you could invest in stocks, you know, real estate. You could invest in whatever you want. You know, right. Sure. You should find what or anything. Okay, and then the obvious the hope is that this portfolio over here will kick off enough cash flow someday to be able to finance your lifestyle and obviously inflations of things. So like, but that's that that's would you agree that that's kind of like retirement planning? Yeah, not one. In general, there's there's spending and saving and then, you know, whatever saving for investing or saving just to save like yes for sure. Right, but would you agree that like the money that you set aside hopefully earns enough that you can ultimately not have to work actively, but this money will kick off enough for you to be able to live your life. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. That's why even for me, I'm fortunate where I'm, you know, I was left my job and I didn't have to run to another job immediately. Great. All right. So now, so now this is this is the life insurance version of that. Same same thing. Spend your money. Money saved. Okay. Now instead of investing directly into like let's say real estate or the market, what many people in this I would include myself in this. One of the things is like what if we put some of the money directed some of the money into a life insurance policy. And when we talk about max funding or life insurance policy, I mean, we're we're really nerds about this. I think you could create a lot of I think if you're going to do this like you if you're going to structure a life insurance policy in a way that has cash available like make sure you understand the economics, the pros and cons of that. But so you fund it and I'm drawing two lines that I'll do E and O. E stands for emergency and O stands for opportunity fund. And and with with that, I'm very proud of the many clients and I'm included in this. I'm proud of the fact that most most of our clients don't utilize loans and that might be crazy for people to hear. But you know, I think like they they look at this maybe as like a protection asset and a safe asset when it comes to their portfolio. And we take the E for emergency really seriously. And it's like fit you figure out what that is for me. It's pretty aggressive like I'm pretty aggressive with emergency funds, meaning like for me personally, I want over a year of personal expenses and in the business, I'm a year of business expenses. People might say why? But it's like I'm able to run a great business and not be like so jumpy because I know that that we have capital. Now I'm choosing to have that this money in life insurance. You don't have to, but I'm just like choosing to have a store to hear. But then anything above the E opportunity, I would look at as is a Oh for opportunity. And the oh for opportunities, just like where you want to utilize your money. Now there's a difference between an asset and a liability. We don't teach like if you're going to borrow against your life insurance policy and let's just say the cost of borrowing is 5%. If you do anything with that borrowed money and make less than 5%, you are literally losing cash. So if you're borrowing at 5 and earning a 4% rate return. Yes, your money's compounding over here, but you were literally lost 20% on that activity. And so it's really important where whatever you quote unquote, borrow that whatever activity you do, you have to understand the return. And you also have to factor in risk and factor in like what if it doesn't turn out? What if thing like you have to factor all that stuff in. And you have to make sure that whatever you're going to use your policy for is earning a way greater return than what it's costing you to to borrow because not only is it costing you to borrow but you're losing some liquidity. And that can be problematic as well. And I think this is where a lot of people fault when you teach people to buy cars or go on vacations or pay off mortgages and all. It's like listen, if you actually look at the math, I don't think it doesn't add up when it just comes to pure math and people will say well the flow of cash and all that stuff. And it's like no, listen, like that's also the math does not add up even when you talk about flow of cash flow because in no you can't justify a bad financial decision and say oh on the back end, I'm paying myself back so it all makes sense. That's not true. So I want to just want to hear your thoughts here because obviously I'm looking at this as you know, even if I can earn a greater return outside of policy a lot of times I don't because I value control and liquidity more than what I could be making. But then this same policy creates an umbrella and that's the insurance aspect of like there's insurance protection and other benefits as well. What are what problems do you have with that way of just explaining a big picture of? I mean, I'm not on ground where any insurance policy fits in someone's financial life. Yeah, I mean, I guess I don't have a problem with it because I don't think it's neither bad or good and I think you know, sounds like you do a good job explaining people the pros and cons. I just think that usually like what scenarios in general that you know, there's there's scenarios. There's like the reality of what people are really going to do. So and not to go into like the alternatives, but it's no different than it. I opened up a brokerage account and let's say I did tax exempt money market funds because on my even checked recently like what the what my brokerage and they said, well, because this is money markets, we would allow you 95% access to borrow. I think my rate probably down somewhere, but they're like, oh, 2.39. And right now I'm hurting like 3.4. So again, I'm not really going into like, you know, there's alternatives, but I'm just like, I think this is fine, but there are also like other ways to do things here. Yeah. If you just saved money, you want to need a look at like, okay, there's five. Yes. Let's let's talk about that. Let's talk about that next. Let's talk about that. Okay. Okay. Let's let's talk about two things. First thing I want to just say is if anyone's talking about infinite banking around this part here, I think you got to be really careful. And I think this is where a lot of problems come up when you're teaching people how they use insurance to better spend the only way the math works is if you make more money over here. And I think it's financially very problematic to especially be pitching this to people that aren't sophisticated, especially because majority of the people that you're probably working with where maybe maybe not like worth 50 million, you know, they're probably like, hey, like this is, you know, I was not aware of this. And so I think a lot of problems in a lot of different areas break down when you're trying to help people use infinite banking or life insurance to better spend their money. I think that's very problematic. I think one of the reasons is if you look at insurance as an asset and look at it as a part or a foundation of how you save and invest your money, I think that's that's just not an investment, but it's just like how the flow of that is key. Now you said the other thing, there's other assets out there that you could save and leverage. Right. So you use an example of you have a savings account. And we'll just say versus, you know, whole life. And you said your savings account earns over 3%. Yeah, it's um, I mean, it's basically a savings but it's money market. But these are tax exempt money markets. So, you know, almost like a lot of... You say tax exempt money markets, you mean like, add a bank account, it's tax exempt? No, no, I mean, this is at a brokerage. I mean, fidelity. But I mean, it's very like what if we're functions almost the same? But you're saying it's tax exempt so you don't have to pay taxes on the interest? Yeah. Yeah, they're 10. I mean, but you're earning what? So it's been, I think this year it's like 3.5. It's been higher before, but and yeah, I don't know about it. You know, it's exactly funds and funds. Yes, but the devil's advocate could be you can earn right now similar 5, 6% but you'd have to pay taxes. So it's a fair to say that whether it's earning 5% taxable or you're not earning exempt, but obviously you're not earning the same of what someone would have to pay on the tax side. So let's say you're so you're paying 3.5% and you're saying you're saying in this case, you're able to borrow money at less than three? Yeah, like 2.39. Okay, so 2.39. Be for borrow and then e-furn. Sure, I'm annoying lots of people in my drawings. Okay, so, okay, so we can agree that this from an arbitrage, this technically in this snapshot, you arbitrage your money. You're arbitrage your earning more than what you're borrowing. And so you could look at this and you could be like, okay, this is actually, we all we cared about was arbitrage. This is a more positive arbitrage than what you get in a whole life insurance policy. Period. Like straight up, like if you're earning, let's just be generous and say that you're earning 4% in term rate return on a whole life policy. With interest rates going up, that might be higher, but again, with intran rate return, you got to wait 15, 20, 25 years in term rate return. So let's say you're earning 4% in term rate return. And you're, let's, 4% or 5% and let's say the loan that you is 5%, the 6%. So literally, there's no from an arbitrage standpoint. There's, if all you cared about was cash on cash arbitrage, using whole life insurance is not something that you should do. And those of you that are watching that are like, that's why I do index universal life, like I would caution you on that as well. Long term, don't think that it's going to pan out maybe the way that you think it is. So then the question would be, oh, you got me. Why in the world would you use whole life insurance versus something like this? And the reasons I would do still use whole life versus versus this are all the benefits that I get. It's not just a, a, I don't just put my money in life insurance for the cash benefits. There's so many other benefits that I get with whole life that I don't get with savings accounts. And so you may agree or disagree with me, but when you start checking all the boxes and this is the same thing that you were like, sometimes it gets over hyped and over pitched. But it is true that whole life gives you a lot more benefits than, than straight up, same as a count. But there's some other cons that we talked about early on in this, like, same as count is more flexible. Technically, you get earlier liquidity than in a whole life insurance policy. So there's cons. You don't need to apply for insurance, whereas this, you need to get approved. But once approved, there's other benefits that whole life gives you. And it's my belief when you actually value those benefits that while there's not cash on cash arbitrage, there's value, there's, there's financial benefit over arbitrage. And I believe that is far greater long term than what you get in a, in the savings account. So in the short term, say the account wins. If all I care is about cash on cash, long term, whole life when structured properly, I believe is better for somebody if they can see past the few cons and that they're not over over leverage by trying to fund insurance. I want to hear your thoughts, but I just wanted to lay out that dynamic. I can't, like, there's a lot of, well, not speaking that properly. But I also literally am sharing with you why I still am a fan of whole life, even with it or not being cash arbitrage. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no, no, I love insurance. I mean, I had all types of it. I, you know, there's definitely a place for it. And, you know, I, yeah, I feel bad because I wasn't trying to, you know, do like, I got you. I just more like, there are like, there's alternatives. And like I said, I didn't want this to be a strictly alternative. Because for me, I don't think I would even, even though I could borrow and I really did call just to, because I'm like, you know, I just want to have the information because I was planning to bring it up. And I wanted to see, you know, I'm saying, like, yeah, your interest would be 2.39. And I believe there are other benefits. And I think with that, you know, if there is a need or desire, however, I know some eight, you know, agents are like, oh, like, I don't need life insurance. I want life insurance to protect my family. But, you know, just, yeah. You know, it's kind of irrelevant like the need or want or, you know, like if you have it, because you think you need it or want it, because there's also, you know, there's convertible term. There is term to age. The company, one of the companies I worked for, they had a term to age 65 and a term to age 70 that was convertible. And so those are scenarios where, and again, this is not really like, you know, I'm going to call it alternatives. But if you want to go the route of like, okay, living benefits term to age 65 and it's convertible with the brokerage account, could that be whole life because it's more flexible? Because I guess, you know, I just, I realized for me, I do value the ability to contribute and stop saving any time I want. And if I do, you know, feel like I need more insurance, than I have, because I actually had an overfunded whole life before. And so, and it was kind of when agents were calling in about these IBCs, I eventually got one and I did it in house. So, there was no commission and I actually like broke even like, really quick. So I'm like, oh, goodness, like, man, they, I don't know if they did it just for like home office employees or whatever. But, but then I even used it. So I was able to, I did line it out. There was, it was like, it was a family member. They were doing like a short flip or something. So they're like, hey, I just need to hold on to some money for a reserve, but I'll pay you percentage back. So I, you know, so, so for fun of it, I did it through a policy loan. And then two months later, got the money back, paid back the loan. And then I had kind of this, uh-huh moment. And so the, uh-huh moment for me about like, I, I, I even just IBC, but the overfunded whole life to buy assets. I had it after I got the policy because before I, I've read the, become your own banker, the Nelson Nash, like, I've read the little booklets about how the wealthy use life. And so all that to me, like, intrigued me enough to be like, let me do it. And then I did it. And that did deal. It was a quick deal. I got the money, paid it back. And then I just, I guess I had this, uh-huh moment of like, oh, it wasn't that amazing. So not that it was bad. It just, to me, it wasn't that amazing. And then I thought of my lifetime, the long time, do you like, do I want to, you know, do this, have this premium and structure? And, and then it just became something I just wasn't as excited about. Yeah. You canceled it? Oh, yeah. And I'm, I'm luckily I got all the money back. So again, I don't know if it was like a home office employee thing or something. They're like, we don't want to be employees. The, uh, couple of thought and couple of thoughts. It's just, it sounds to me that you don't value whole life insurance long term. Like it's, it's, it's pretty, or it didn't move the needle for you because it's like, you literally just shared how you funded a policy, you used it, you got the cash, did the, did the flip? Was it successful? You got your money back? Or did you, were you able to make money on, yeah, yeah, I did. Yes. And all that work. And you, and you were like, hey, I'm not thrilled about pretty much funding this insurance policy long term. And, and, um, but it ultimately, and I'm not, this is not a jab to you, but you just made a decision that you're like, I don't value the long term benefit of whole life for me. I would rather have it in other accounts like savings accounts. And, and the like, is that a fair breakdown? Yeah. You would only want, you will hold, you'd only want to do a whole life if you actually value what it could be long term for you. And some people do. And, and many people don't say the reason why I didn't. So this was, um, couple of years ago, uh, I mean, I just, April, I just turned 30. So like, I was, you know, I haven't fun living in the city doing all this. And, um, I mean, as of now, I, you know, I don't have dependence. Um, you know, I'm not married. I don't have dependence. And, and then when I was like, you know, this policy and kind of legacy, I'm like, okay, if I die now, like I do have, uh, I do have, you know, uh, what the, I think I'd say, I forgot what they call on savings account. Like, it's not beneficiary, but like paid on death. So, um, it's like, it's like a beneficiary for your bank account or investment. So I had all that in place. So I'm like, at the very least, if I pass away my siblings, my parents, my nieces, they, I don't know, it doesn't have to go the government, but, but yeah. And that's something that I, you know, things could change, but like, I don't desire to get married or, you know, have kids. So that's kind of what, well, and, and again, this is not it. This is a goes both ways. That's not it. That's a decision that you are making. There's a, actually, there's probably nothing financially. There's no reason financially people have kids. There's not like someone's going to be like, Hey, I have a really good idea financially. Let's have kids. But I look back even on my life and I'm, I'm a new father. And it's been one of the coolest things ever. And, and so it's not even it's not any, like, it's, everyone has different paths that they want to take. But I think also this, this, this conversation, I think, is really, you know, important for people to see because I think there's, I think we're able to go a couple layers deeper. And again, it makes sense that you might not value permanent insurance with not having desire to not get married and have kids that, that makes sense. You can see where maybe I value or other people value their ups permanent and 100% greater when you have certain things 100 like, you know, so I think it's, I think it's interesting. And I, I don't know if you have any final thoughts, but I, my hope is, and I'm not sure how these videos are going to do on, on this channel. My hope is that we can continue to go deeper in that people appreciate people, my willingness to have people come on that, I mean, to your credit, you reach out to us and said, hey, I, I disagree with some of the things that you're saying. And I would love to come on, have a dialogue. And I just wish you would disagree more. I need to find somebody who like adamantly disagrees with me because I find, I find us agreeing way too much. Yeah, I mean, that's how, that's how it is. And so I know I felt kind of bad when, you know, we had this set up because I'm like, oh, I don't really think we disagree because a lot of this is more like just brisk, you know, just like opinions on, but yeah, I mean, I, you know, I appreciate what you said. And I mean, I have three nieces that are young and I love them to death, but I, you know, I'm just still at that point in my life where I'm enjoying being young and like, how are we young people that like, hey, we could play, but all so like, you're not my fun I can't show it, it's a bit of a build. You know, you don't like, you know, things to change. And the, I mean, more, I guess kind of enclosed, I mean, that not too long, though sometimes, you know, my dad will call me up and be like, all right, I'm going through the, you know, the, if anything happens to me, this is where everything's at type of stuff. And yeah, there's a lot of, and my family, like, I guess, you know, grandparents, both sets, my parents, there's whole life. And it's because of the legacy aspect. And so I don't think there's any perfect solution. There's only trade-offs. And so I think when someone thinks that whole life and the overfunded that there's not, it's not an absolute good or it's, you know, the best or worse, you know, financial asset, just hey, there's got things bad things, you know, can live with the downside. I think it's a, in my, and name is like insurance is not an investment. That's probably the biggest thing that people maybe come on and they perceive my position to be like, insurance is the end they'll be all and that's not. I look at it as a financial foundation protection, you know, all. And, and but then the beautiful feature of that is you have access to cash. And if you have access to that cash throughout your life and you benefit insurance long term, it is pretty amazing. You get the long term benefits of insurance, the legacy, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you have, you have access to cash to be able to invest in the things that you care about or make moves. And so it's again, it's not, yeah, a same account for the first seven to ten years maybe, might be better when you look at just the liquidity flexibility and cash available. Now, over time, a savings account will underperform what are properly structured whole life, but, but the disadvantage of that is you got to wait 10 plus years. But the pro is you can utilize that cash, which is a huge benefit. And then the other pro is there's all these other benefits of insurance that may not benefit you directly, but are beneficial to your estate, to your family. And that's where I find that people that really get it. They like the strategy, but they're not ever thinking that this thing is going to like solve all their financial problems. And that's, that's where I have problems with people that overhype it. And I know lots of people, I know lots of people that are really, really pro-imprint banking, really pro-imprint banking that get drove in crazy when they see people over pitching or overhyping or over marketing. And if there's one thing that I would like is to, is to kind of like tone down the noise, because I think it's doing a lot of disservice. So, Cameron, thank you. Thank you for coming on the show. My hope is that I hear, we'd love to hear from so many of you. And please read, please make comments on your thoughts, takeaways. And if you want to come on and have a discussion with me, please let us know in the comments and we'll figure out a way for you to come on the show. So, Cameron, thank you. Thank you.