How To Use Life Insurance for Alternative Investments

 How do you create enough cash on your life that you have options? Because when you have more options, you have more freedom. The question is, how is that going to enhance future cash flow? I thought about the couple I had helped, where we helped them free up 6,000 a month, paying off some of their loans and debts by getting creative, and that 6,000 they actually bought a four-wheeler, but that's 6,000 bucks, which Dave would have hated. Ramsey would have been like, you guys should go to hell, you know? He teaches it so simply, even if it's false, it's kind of like Donald Trump, right? Like in fact, Jack, Donald Trump, you're like, dude, it doesn't matter if I think you're great or not, you are kind of a liar, you know? Right. It's the same thing with Dave Ramsey. When they say, you pay yourself back. Bull, you are paying interest to another bank called Insurance Company. If you can show me why this is not a good deal, I'm out. I'm out. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong. What does your framework look like for analyzing deals? And it's like, how do you determine the ones that you even look at? Then the ones that you look at, how do you determine the ones that you're actually going to invest in? When they start saying, oh, you should buy cars with it, you should buy houses with it. I think false because I want to use the bank's money as much as I possibly can. Like say that you have a $10,000 credit card, right? And it's $200 bucks a month, you know, that's a $2,400 a year. You pay that off. That's like a 24% rate of return. You even did some like, well, and gas investments. All of a sudden, done, he's making between $100,000 to $130,000 a year, but that's same money. I'll tell you my two favorite right now. Okay. Well, well, and gas. So I do that and I get paid the royalties on it. Because if gas, if gas prices are going to go up, I might as well get paid on that. We're all those people are on YouTube and maybe even right now, making comments saying like, oh, you guys are, you guys are just selling it. Well, yeah, we're selling it, but we used it first. Yeah. Like I didn't sell it. I didn't want to sell it, you know. Well, and give me a good reason why not. The other one that pays me the most right now is actually a partnership I have doing raw land investing. Wow. Okay. Yeah, that one's been great. I've probably put in about $400,000 total in the last two and a half years. That's paying me $10,465 a month. Number one, what's your thoughts on people that are like put all your money into life insurance? And number two, what is your thoughts on people that are literally selling life insurance for income in the future only using life insurance? You say that you had a better way to pay off death in day-bramacy. Yeah. Wondering if you just want to touch on that. Chris. Caleb. Welcome to the Better Well Show. It's obviously not in my typical studio. Yes. We're suffering here in Hawaii. We've had like multiple, multiple people tell, tell both of us that we need to become friends. And so we connected for the first time in person here. And I have to say, love your story and love what you're up to and honor that you're on the show. Well, it's what it should be here, man. Like it's so cool to get to meet you this weekend. And of course, the whole place is the one of the most beautiful places that you guys can and see from here, you know. All right. So we're going to, we're going to bet, we're going to talk about all kinds of things. Infinite banking, using life insurance and alternative investments. We're going to talk about day-bramacy. We're going to talk about some of your successes and failures. But before we get into all that exciting, exciting stuff, why don't you just go back and give like the 60 second to a one hour? The 60 second or two minute version of like your backstory from a standpoint of just, you know, who are you? Because obviously you didn't come out of the womb like thinking, finances, money, life insurance. And so obviously I'm just curious like who's Chris Miles that we know today? Yeah, definitely not. I mean, my parents, if there was anything they agreed upon, it wasn't about how much money we had as what we didn't have. Right? Like we can't afford this. We think I have made a money, money doesn't grow in trees, you know? Like those kind of phrases growing up. And so I wanted something different. And I wanted to college because I was the first one in my family to do so. Yeah. But I realized pretty quickly like the professors weren't the path. Like I could tell educated people weren't always prosperous. So I thought, well, I'm going to be a business consultant. And that was my intention. And I thought, well, if I'm going to do that, shouldn't I have real life business experience and not just telling people what to do because I got an MBA at some college out of some books? Yeah. So I actually dropped out of college with one class to go. I really won paper to write. It wasn't even a class. And I was going to just take that year off as a badical to come start some kind of business. And then get some experience and then go back and finish my MBA. Well, while I was doing that, the first business like kind of came up that I thought was intriguing was actually being a financial advisor. Not knowing they take anybody off the street as long as you could pass a test with 70% and not be a criminal. Yeah, right. Right. Far set. Super low. Oh, yeah. Like and I was like, I was dressed enough. I was interviewing like it was a real job interview. And they're just like, well, cool. You got a heartbeat. Yeah, it's 100% commission only. Good luck. It's just a sales job. Yeah. It's just a sales job. Yeah. So I did it. And the thing is I love being an entrepreneur. I love like really have my own control, my destiny, my time, my freedom and everything else. And so I started going down that path. And I did that for four years as it's this traditional, you know, stock security, mutual fund securities license, financial advisor. But after four years, I started to realize something because my dad who also was always telling me to just save everything. He was like Dave Ramsey's best friend, right? Like the guy that Dave Ramsey took notes from was my dad. Mm-hmm. The cheapest guy you've ever met. And uh, and I said, you would only buy rice because you couldn't afford rice and things. Exactly. Yeah. The beans had to be like, case law sale along with the rice. So are you bought out of it two different years? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Way past poll day, he still has Mrs. buttersworth from 20 years ago because it was on sale. Yeah, it's probably going to kill him. Oh, yeah, total hoarder. Yeah, right. And so, uh, so anyways, uh, long story short, he actually asked me, he's like, when do you become my financial advisor? And he never, ever disclosed money growing up. Other than we didn't have enough, right? Well, I sit down and look at his finances. And he paid off his house. He was totally debt free. He had saved money in his 401k for decades. And when I looked at all the numbers, I said, dad, here's the deal. You're 61 years old. If you want to retire today, you better hope you'd die in five years. Because that's when you're going to run out of money. And of course, he was like, well, all right, what do I do? I said, I don't know because you've done everything right from what I teach as a financial advisor. I mean, you were putting money in mutual funds. You're putting money at 401k with the match, right? That supposed to be no brainer. Free money. He's totally debt free, including his house. He's done everything right. And yet it's not enough. I couldn't just throw him in some stock thing, hoping that that would work out. Because what if the market tanks? And this is by way, this is at the end of 2005. So two years later, it would have tanks. Yes, it's just saying. And so I was bugged by that. I was really disturbed. And it was just a few weeks later, I reached out to a friend of mine who I trained to be a financial advisor, but then left to go to do this crazy thing called real estate investing. Yeah. And I was thinking this guy's got to be broke. Because whenever financial advisors try to go do something else, it can't be any better than what you get as a financial advisor. It's like the cream of the crop. This is the place to be. And I talked to him and I call him up. This is right up for Christmas, right? And he's like, I'm like, well, how's life? He's like, man, life's amazing. My dad and I have partnered on some deals in real estate. And we've doubled his income as a professor at the local university. And I said, oh, come on, that's too good to be true. There's no way that's possible. He's like, Chris, how many requirements are really, truly financially free, where they don't worry about money? Well, none. They all worry about money. Even the retired ones still worry they'll run out of money too soon. Okay, Chris, great job. Well, how about this? How many of you guys as financial advisors are financially free, not off the commissions, but actually doing these investments? And I thought about it honestly. And I remember thinking of guys that have been working there since the late 1970s that still couldn't retire themselves. And I realized I said, I don't know, none. And he said, there's your problem. And so that got me down this rabbit hole of like going down this alternative investment path, looking things like real estate investing, where guys in their 20s and 30s actually were financially free. As opposed to the guys who are in their 70s, this financial advisor still broke, right? And it was, you know, after a certain amount of months, I was like, you know what, I can't do this anymore. I got to get out. I put my resignation in. I said, I'll never teach about money again. I'll just be a mortgage broker. And I'll do Bollarm Dancing on the side. I'll teach Bollarm Dancing at the university there. And I did that for some time. But as I started to learn more about how they did real estate investing, later that next year, I myself was actually out of the rat race. I had enough, and just so you know, the passive income wasn't, didn't have to be much. I had two young kids at the time. I only need like 3,500 a month to get out of the rat race, right? But I did. I was starting to... When you say rat race, you're right, then you're talking about Robert Kiyosaki's concept of not having to work for your passive income to pay for your necessary expenses, right? And so I was making about 4,000 or 5,000 a month when I only needed 3,500 a month. And I was working maybe a couple hours a week. And that blew my mind. I was 28 years old. And I'm thinking, holy cow. Like how... This is mind blowing. And so naturally, because you're 28 years old, people are like, what the heck? You're doing retired at 28. You know, kind of like you, right? Like people like, you're so successful. Like you're so young. How do you do it? You know, that's what started happening to me. And so naturally, I love teaching. You know, just why I was teaching ballroom dancing too, right? And so I started going down that route. In fact, in 2007, I came out of retirement to start a company with a guy named Garrett Gunnerson. You probably heard of. Yeah, yeah. Time to. We started a company together to help teach people how to do that kind of stuff. And since split, I've had money ripples to start in 2012, you know, and doing that same thing is really, how do you create enough cash on your life that you have options? Because when you have more options, you have more freedom. It's good. You have more options. More freedom. More options, equals, freedom. I like that concept. I love that. So if we take a step back, I'm a big process framework person. Yeah. So okay, all the things that you've learned, one of the big themes is most people what they're doing isn't working. Yeah. They're just, they're, they're propping up the system, but they're like sheep that are getting sheared from the system and they're not winning in the end. Right. What is the framework that if you had to say, Caleb, I only have three minutes with you. Here's, here's what you got to do. Yeah. Step one, step two, step three, step four. What, how many steps are there and what's the process if you're gonna like just sit down with our audience at, for coffee and just break it down? The first thing is you have to break the accumulation mindset, which is what every financial advisor and every financial institution teaches you, right? They teach you accumulate money like you're a squirrel. You try to hoard up your nuts for the winter of retirement. And instead of just trying to pack and save, like my dream as a financial advisor was, if I can be cheap enough while I'm in my 20s as a financial advisor through my 30s, if hopefully by the time I'm about 40 years old or so, if I make enough money and I am cheap enough, I turn off the AC in the summer, turn off the heat in the winter, you know, and I save up a minute of my nuts, maybe two million dollars, then I can live on my 3% a year or 60,000 a year. For me, in 2005, 2006, I thought 60,000 a year, 5,000 a month was live in the life. It was a comfortable life. Because that's like, compared to your dad, it probably was. Yeah. Well, and compared to today, I'm going to spend $5,000 a month now. And so I thought, man, I'll have to use safe $10,000,000. And I'll be there, not accounting for inflation. Yeah. And so that was my goal. And what shocked me was when I realized that, what if I had that same money, right? Like, say, I did have to, you know, not even $2 million, right? I found one of 5,000 a month. Well, what if I had just a half million dollars a quarter of that money paying me 1% a month? That's 5,000 a month, right? I didn't need as much money. So when I started to see these guys, especially in the real estate game, they're doing like hard money loans and things like that, paying people like, not just 12. I mean, back in 2006, they're paying obscene amounts of money, like two, three percent a month. Yeah, I mean, just ridiculous numbers, right? So I'm doing the math. I'm like, holy cow, if I have $100,000 even, and I'm making 2% a month, that's $2,000 a month. That's not much, you know? And that shifted my brain. And that's the first thing that our listeners need to understand is you have to break away from everything you've been sold your entire life from financial advisors, from financial institutions that really financial advisors are just their workforce, right? They're just out there really just as this army of crusaders, trying to teach you to go play their game that makes them money forever, right? But instead, you can make money yourself investing outside of Wall Street into Main Street investing. And so that's the biggest thing. So when you realize that that, then here's the advice I give, is get your money out of prison. Yeah, right? Not financial advice, by the way. Don't too crystal our means. Yeah, by the way, we don't mean literally your money's in prison. But what I mean by is, is like if you think about financial advice, it's always taught you to walk up your money. Walk up in 401K's, where if you work for that company, you have to get fired, laid off, and you don't want to borrow from it because it's expensive as heck to do that. You don't want to do that. So they have you walk money in 401K's, and walk in IRA's, and don't you touch that, because if you're not 59 and half, you get tax and penalized. So don't you dare do that. And you know what, pay off your house. Because Dave Ramsey says that's the case, right? So pay off that house, get debt free, because that's how if somebody becomes financially free, of course the fact is, not all of your expenses are debt. In fact, the minority of your expenses are debt, but somehow that's supposed to be freedom too. So if you just save up enough forever, and you pay off your debt, you're fine. And again, lock your money up in equity, or in IRA's and 401K's. But instead, if you can get that money out of there, you know, and now I'm not just saying cash out your mortgage, right? But instead of trying to dump all this extra money on your mortgage, free it up. So let's give you a real life example, right? Do you so I do you want to have a how to method? So I had a client that actually used to work with, when I worked with Garrett back on the day, and we freed up a bunch of cashfuls, saving like 20,000, 30,000 a year. But he came back, he said, I need to know about investing, because that was the element we didn't ever teach with, with, that eventually became wealth factory. We never talked about investing that way. So he's like, what do I do with investing? And his, here's what his whole goal was, and he was Asian, by the way, and almost every Asian we've worked with, and you might have seen this too, they're like the ultimate like awesome savers, like they are super savers, right? Almost as superhero status savers. But at the same time, it's very much like no debt, just save as much as you can forever, right? He was on the same path. He was in his 40s, he was a chiropractor, and he had two properties, you know, two houses, his own house and an investment property in California. His goal was, in six years, pay off all his debt, he'll free himself of an mortgage payment, and he'll be able to pay off his rental property, and then keep all the cash, you know? Well, when we did the map, I said, well, that free's up 4,200 a month doing that. Okay, that's cool, but you need more than 4,200 a month, right? And I said, well, here's the thing, even just your rental property has 700,000 of equity. I said, what's your net income coming off this rental property? 200 a month. So he's making a 0.3% return on his equity, right? Because 2400, you know, into 700,000, it's like 0.3%. CD's two years ago, paid more than that. Yeah, exactly. Like you have a savings account that would do better than that, right? And so I was like, instead of trying to pay this off, because he had blinders on, he had to do it the way that financial companies had taught him. I said, instead of doing that, let's sell that property. You know, like, what if you sold the property? Again, we try not to give financial advice or our investment bias, but I was like, if you sold this property, that's 700,000 is in your control. You can then get out to invest. Yeah. So it's like, you know, get your money out of prison, you know, get liquid, and then you then you can get it out. And he resisted for two years. He would not do it. He's just like, I can't. Like, that was our first rental property. We love it. Well, eventually he finally did it. And he ended up buying a bunch of rental properties like out in Louisiana, where there's a lot cheaper, higher cash on cash returns. He just last month reached out to me. He said, I just bought now my seventh property. And by the way, this would have been year five. He was still going to be a year away from paying off his mortgage, right? Year five. So he would have finally, at the point, he actually would have made 2,400 a month on that property. If you got it free and clear. Here, now he's over $9,000 a month with these seven properties, right? And he's like, I get it now. Like, this is what you're trying to teach me. I'm like, yeah. Like, you're making over 100 grand a year versus trying to make maybe 28,000 a year. There's a big difference. Yeah. So in other words, your frame or could be get money liquid. So get it out of jail and then invest in cash flow. Like cash flow investments. Because, and again, like you could have a million dollars in the future could be someone that could potentially produce $40,000. Like the typical financial advisor route. And what you're saying is, hey, with a million bucks, we can create way more than $40,000 for the cash flow. And there's a world where $200,000 could create the same amount of cash flow as the million. And so your reverse engineering from cash flow first. Exactly. Yeah, we actually had a client, another one from California, that was in the military, had exactly a million dollars. Yeah, financial advisor size, you can live on 30,000 a year. Which, yeah. You're a millionaire, live in below the poverty line. Or broke millionaire, right? And once he's got invested, he'd bought some duplexes. He'd invested in some apartment buildings. He even did some like, well, and gas investments. All of a sudden done, he's making between 100 and 130,000 a year. But that's same money. Yeah. And that's the thing. You don't have to save and sacrifice forever. And the truth is, I've run the calculations so many times in inflation, everything else in real rates return of 401Ks. And most likely, what's going to happen is if you save the max of 20,000 a year in your 401K, you'll live on after inflation about 20,000 a year. Well, I mean, that's ridiculous. No wonder people are begging for Social Security still. Yeah. And no wonder, like, I guess another way to say this is, majority people do not know how spending their money and retirement is going to look. They don't understand distribution. But they understood that retirement should really be called future cash flow planning. They would make different decisions with their money. Yes. But they're all focused on average rates of return, which are great. And there's no doubt your money will grow over time. Unless something crazy knock on wood, your money will grow over time. The question is, how is that going to enhance future cash flow? That really needs to be the conversation. And what you find is, I'll use cows for an example. It's like, you'd have one cow producing X amount of milk. And potentially, a person number two might need five cows to produce that same amount of milk. With which one would you rather have? Having the one cow is a lot cheaper and on the submit and less diversified. So there's benefits, pros and cons. But at the end of the day, I would rather have a more efficient cow is doing more work than having a higher net worth that's producing less cash flow. Yeah. Well, there was a video that Dave Ramsey came out with. Well, it's funny. His co-host George, right? He did his own little episode. You probably saw the video where he was talking about, people should be living on less, like 3%. Yeah. He's kind of video reacting to this. Yeah, I did too. I was like, it was just too good not to, right? But like when Dave is saying, no, like, you could live on 8%. Because if you make 12, first off, Dave, like, and I've done the S&P, like the actual yield averaged out in a compound interest calculator, it's closer to about 8.3% right now. It's the one the highest has been because 1994, 30 years ago, at this time was at the low of a recession before the market took off. And we're also at the all-time high, right? So I've measured it over the last, really 15 years of this actual real average. It's usually between 7 and 8, not even 8.3. It's the highest I've seen it been in a long time. So you're saying when he says 12%, he's just straight up, like pulling numbers off his butt. Yeah. He's basically calling the same thing I quoted in the early 2000s when I was a financial advisor. Like, because after the 90s, especially when there was like funds that were pampered, like I remember 1999, there was a Janis fund that did 132%. And we would always share that with clients. Like, oh yeah, I did like 132% in one year in the year of 1999. Now nobody cares about Janis funds. Like they suck, you know? But hey, that's the thing you should be buying because that's, you know, past performance is not indicative of future results. Yeah. But Janis is awesome, right? You know, like we're just toilet Janis prostitutes is what we were. We were just the jiggle-os out there, you know? And so the problem, that's the problem I see, right? Is that, again, you're always trying to throw out these numbers that really aren't true. I mean, even the Dave Ramsey, I mean, the Twitter posts all the time, like I love that he says, you save $100 a month for 40 years, you'll have 1.176 million. Well, I did the math in a compound interest calculator. It's not 1.176 million, it's 979,000. So when he says everybody should be a millionaire, well, guess what? You just missed it, Dave. Like, you had to save 104 bucks a month, not 100 bucks a month to get to that million. But two, it doesn't do 12%. You know, it just doesn't do that. If you put 8% in, you get more like 300,000. Yeah, and the other question is, a million bucks. Great. What was that? Why are we even excited about a million? And I'm not downplaying, I'm not downplaying this. It just goes back to what we were talking about. It's like, what is that actually going to do for you for your future? Yeah, the best way for software inflation, because everybody's worried about what's really inflation, what's that after inflation? You know what the best way to do that is? Get financially free in the next five or 10 years. Then you don't have to worry about inflation as much, right? If you can get to that cash flow of place where you have more enough to pay your expenses faster, you have to beat inflation. So now let's talk about some of your favorite assets. And I just want to be very, very clear, like, obviously, not giving investment advice. Not giving investment advice. And like, for every success, I know people in real estate. And almost every sector that you probably mentioned lose money. And it's not necessarily the investments fault. It's a lot of times the investor. So in the problem with the route that you're going to talk about, is it's less diversified. So it's like there's more potential for it to go south with all that said, though, the cash flow upside and potential is wonderful. And I believe you have a very, very, very, very good track record and you've helped people and open people's eyes to what they should be doing with a different way. And maybe a better way. And so what are some of your favorite assets in 2024 and beyond for people to look into and be more knowledge about? Yeah, apartments is self-storage. Yeah, not. Yeah, I was just about to say, I hope you're not going to pitch apartments. No. Anything's just 2022. That's the thing. That's always being pitched, right? And stills of this day. Yeah, I mean, and what was the problem with a bunch of apartment buildings? Because a lot of my friends, syndications, everything looked good when interest rates are super low. You think it was just bad underwriting, like bad underwriting and why aren't they performing well? I mean, it could be. I had a friend that, I mean, he started investing in Phoenix. I was like, OK, that's a hot market. Stay away from those hot markets, right? Because that, once it's hot, you know it's not. Whenever I hear people going to a certain investment, I don't want to do that investment. If everybody's pitching me, if Grant Cardone pitches me, you know, it's already too late, right? Not the name names. But we love you, Grant. But anyways, but it's true. When you start hearing authorities, sports players, when your Uber drivers tell it, giving you, you got to run. That's right. When people from my high school, that barely congratulate high school, start asking me, hey, how do you buy a Bitcoin? You just get a coin? What is it? That's the time to sell my Bitcoin. So yeah, so apartments, I mean, that's, that, that was, I mean, there was definitely some bad underwriting for sure. It like over, really like overconfidence, I would say, is a big thing, right? But even the best investors, and I'll tell you, like I have friends in the apartment space have been doing it for decades. They say that these last two years are worse than even 2008. Wow. Why? Well, it's because that high-in-strait jump, right? Because what happens almost overnight, I mean, it wasn't overnight, but within months, right? We saw the, see, like, if you understand, like, there's houses, like when you buy a single family home like your own house, it's all based on appraisals. It's based on what that person might buy for it at retail for their own house. Yeah. But when you're dealing with apartment buildings or self-storage, it's a business. And business valuations are based on profit. So the more profitable something is, the more you can sell it for. Well, when all of a sudden interest rates go up, especially when they get short-term, they almost hands down. I know you saw the deals, right? They all seem like cookie cutter to the same, you know, just stamp and coming out here. Like, hey, here's the apartment deal we're gonna do. In three years, we're gonna refinance and sell out your position, and then be able to make infinite returns on the back end, you know, all that kind of stuff, right? This is because they're playing on refinancing, but what if they can't? What if they have to refinance at a higher rate? All said, and it's not just the higher rate. That's the problem, right? The problem is that automatically, because rates are higher, the value of their asset drops 20%. Yeah. And so, even if they had 20% equity, they just lost it like that. Because the other buyer that's gonna buy said property is dealing with the same interest rate environment that you're experiencing, the other thing is a lot of these apartment deals were all predicated on caching out with refinancing, and it looks great when at 3%, it doesn't look so good at 7%. Exactly. And so, it's interesting. I think that all comes down to underwriting though, because that you're making assumptions, and some of the best advice that I was given is underwrite very, very conservatively. So I was like, you know, a 30 year am table looks amazing to buy this set investment, and one of my mentors who was, you know, high up in the banking world, he's just like underwrite for 15 or even 10. You can make the deal work at 15 or 10 years. Yeah. Then pump it out to 30, but like make sure that the underwriting works at 15, 10. And I always stuck in my head to be like, I'm going to put constraints on myself when I do due diligence, and it's all about pros and cons. Like what is the worst case scenario that could happen? Yeah. But if it works out in this environment, then boom, this will work. And unfortunately, you know, some people were conservative, but they're like, we're gonna assume that interest rates go to 4%. Yeah. It's like, well, that's a bummer. Yeah, it really is. And so, so that's not my favorite investment for sure. So let's get into here. But there will be a time, right? I'd say my favorite investments right now are really real assets. Okay. And what that mean by that is real cash-flying assets, definitely lending money has been better. Okay. You know, because interest rates, now you may or may not have a real asset attached. If you're investing into a fund, right? You might, now you might still be ahead of the curve from somebody who has equity and a deal because debt gets paid before people to have ownership and a property. Just like, you're more just paid off before you get paid anything on the house when you sell it, right? Well, that can be good. But again, like, there just gotta be some real, like, equity in that deal, some real, like, you know, conservative underwriting for that to really make sense. So I know, definitely, lending has been great. I'm not, I'm still kind of a little bit bullish on turnkey properties. Yeah. You know, I don't like the property managed, but single-family homes, duplexes, things like that. But I do put a big butt on this. I don't, I don't see cash flow being a big indicator here. Okay. I see that more like five to 10 years, you're gonna see a lot more growth and potential returns than you would on something maybe like a debt fund that might pay you 10, 12 plus percent a year, right? So you're saying that single-family or turnkey, it's not as great for cash flow immediately, but the appreciation. Does that contradict what you just said earlier or are you saying the appreciation is just far greater than any stock market historical returns? Definitely that for sure. Definitely better for the stock market. Because stock is like really mediocre returns with high risk, in my opinion, right? But, well, let's say this too, a property does still need a cash flow. Like I've heard a few of my friends make the argument saying, oh, it's always gonna appreciate and so with appreciation, you get this. I'm like, do not bank on appreciation. I made that mistake in 2006 and 2008, right? I made that problem, that mistake before. So you don't wanna bank on appreciation. It's nice when you get it, but it still needs to have profit. You know, like any business you need to have profit, right? So you gotta find that fine balance where you actually have profit with that property so you can, you know, whether any potential, you know, pitfalls will happen. But definitely not something that just breaks even. You don't want that. I'll tell you my two favorite right now. Well, oil and gas, like, especially dealing with mineral rights and things like that, if you can find a really good operator, I don't like speculative, like drilling type stuff. Yeah, I like to know that they've already drilled and found it. It's already there. I'm just investing in the wells to be put in. Okay. So I do that and I get paid the royalties on it. Because if gas prices are gonna go up, I might as well get paid on that. Yeah. I have to pay more. Hatching that, yeah. Yeah. And it's a commodity too. So it's great to have that commodity asset class versus just real estate. Yeah. But the other one that pays me the most right now is actually a partnership I have doing raw land investing. Wow. Yeah, that one's been great. I've probably put in about 400,000 total in the last two and a half years. It's paying me $10,465 a month. I had to land vegan two years ago, jammed, is this something similar to that? Yeah. Is she partner with Mark? Okay. Mark's doing it. Not investment advice, but yeah. Not investment advice. But no, I actually had no couple other people that are doing land investing through their program. And some people that are part of their fund. And again, I've heard mixed things. Some people doing it themselves have found that it hasn't turned out super good. But they're never blaming the education or mark. It's mostly like, hey, this is not passive. Put it that way. Oh yeah. But the fund investing in the operators that are crushing is great. And what's the overall framework on land investing? Well, with him, he actually doesn't even have a fund right now. So it's more just a private partnership that he had. The thing is the wait list is years long. So he's probably going to shut it down soon. Probably by the time he even wore this, who knows? I don't know. But in any case, he's got the flight school that you teach you to do it yourself. But it is like a part-time job or business. So don't think it's passive, right? If you do it yourself. I like to have them do it for me. And so that's where I paid them. Pretty significant amount of money. But almost half of that is just paying them, for their people to do all that stuff. The rather half actually got invested. But still, when I look at the total amount invested, if I have 400 grand in, but I'm still making over 10,000 a month, that's a pretty good ROI. What does your framework look like for analyzing deals? Because I'm sure you're probably a lot. I'm sure you even more than me, because of what you do, you get hit up all the time. Oh, can you check out this investment? Hey, can you do this thing? And it's like, how do you determine the ones that you even look at? And then the ones that you look at, how do you determine the ones that you're actually going to invest in? Fast way to screen them is I always like to ask how long they've been doing that. That specific investment type, right? Not like how long you've been investing in general. Because how many times have you seen guys or like syndicators, they got their own little funds or they got their own syndications, like they're buying apartments or whatever, they'll say, we've got over 30 years of investing experience. And it might be one operations person that maybe was a property manager, which that's good. But he wasn't necessarily buying apartments, right? But they've been around since 2018. They're like, yeah, we've made lots of money. Well, guess what? Dogs made money in 2018, and real estate. You can get it yet, and so make money accidentally. So I don't go for that. I see 2015, 2018, I go for it. Now if they said, hey, I was around since 2006 or 2008 or 90 of them. Yeah, well, that's almost a full market cycle, right? Where you had the ups and the downs, recessions and all that. Where they know they have to be very, like they have to know how to pivot and move based on market stuff. I'm gonna give them more attention than anybody who said I showed up after 2010. Yeah, right? So I really want at least 15 years of experience lately. Now we doubt a lot of people. We doubt a ton. Most of the market right there. The second thing I looked for is, of course, I want to hear about the worst deals. I want to hear what deals they've failed on, what they learned from it. I want to hear their perspectives too, because you know how this is, because you're a curious person, you ask, and you hear words coming out of people's mouths. You can get a pretty good idea. If I hear someone says, well, you know, high risk gets high returns. I'll never invest in that person. Because the definition of risk for us or insurance license, right, is chance of loss. When did a 90% chance of losing become a 90% chance of winning? Like the math doesn't add, right? It's a 10% chance. So I want someone who's like, yeah, there could be some risk here, and I love people that are up front say, hey, you could lose all your money with me. Even though I've done a great job, I've always tried to pay people back. That's another thing I look for is when things did go wrong, wouldn't they try to do, and make sure investors got their money back, right? Did they have to sacrifice personally to do it, just to keep their name in good standing? I have a friend, for example, that he does hard money loans, and he told me about two of my other friends that he did a deal on, and they just said, listen, right now the deal's bad. If anybody asks us for a dime, we're gonna just file for bankruptcy. And there are several people, and in fact, they even try to pitch me, and I wouldn't accept it. I was like, no, this doesn't feel right. I do a lot of things based on gut as well. Like if it doesn't feel right, I just don't do it. Well, that was one of those moments. And so he actually bailed out the deal with two million of his own cash. And he's like, I'll take it all over. You guys get out, I'm gonna buy out your interest, even though there's not really anything to buy. And it's like, I need to make these people whole, because my reputation, my name's a line. That's the kind of person, that kind of thing, you really don't find unless somebody's under stress. The true person really comes out when they're under stress. I like to ask, tell me how this thing blows up. For telling me all the ways that this doesn't happen in the way you think it's gonna happen. And if someone's like, oh, this is bulletproof, I'm out, 100% out. But if people can say, okay, this is a legitimate risk. This is a risk. This is worst case scenario. This is worst case scenario. Like I feel so much better. And any mistake that I've made, it's because I've put my rosy glasses on, wanting to see the good, the benefits, the pros, but really not realizing the cons. Or checking the box of the cons, whether you're like, oh, that will never happen. Now I just assume it's gonna happen. So it's like dating with your eyes wide open, right? Because usually when you fall in love, like you're like, no, that person's perfect. They're amazing. Yeah, they got this stuff, but that's okay. They're perfect. And then all of a sudden you get married, you're like, I cannot stand that about them, right? Yeah, all of a sudden it gets on your nerves. And then your eyes are wide open when you're married. Instead of half shut, when you're married. It's actually really interesting that you mentioned that because I recommend, this is what I did as well, is before you meet the person, write down a list of values. And like these are the things that you want in the other person because if you don't do that, when you meet somebody, then you start, oh, like I really, like then you start building it around them. The same thing goes with investing is get really, really clear on your non-negotiables, what you're looking for. And like build that out so that you can go to the table. And maybe like again, like dating, you're not maybe gonna check every box. But at least it's a really good guideline. And if you have non-negotiables, those boxes have to be checked. That's right. And so that's a really good concept. And I feel like if people just did that when it comes to investing, they would avoid so many mistakes. And the other thing is take responsibility. You take ownership because you might be super smart. I might be super smart, but at the end of the day, you need to take ownership of your financial life and do the due diligence. Anything you want to say before we go talk about life insurance? I'll just kind of say amen to that. Because for example, I have an investment that right now is kind of in litigation and stuff. You know? That's not something you want to. No. Now, granted, it's them trying to sue another person that they did business with, right? But again, that separation of money, you're like, oh, right there, that would create a higher risk. Because they weren't always just investing directly in the source. They were investing with somebody else and do the investment. That's a risk. That's a gamble I didn't understand going in. And so it's not that it's rosy, but I even told some of my clients that someone had sent money in there too like I did. And I just said, listen, here's the deal. It could come back. It may not. But ultimately, it's my fault for getting in, you know? And at the same time, like, even if it does take five years for that litigation to come through and maybe I get half my money back, maybe I get nothing back, maybe I get all of it back. Either way, I look at like an IRA, right? Like a 401k. Like you throw money in that sucker. It doesn't kick off any cash flow for decades. Exactly. And you still think like, oh, what am I going to do? So these people are freaking out because they didn't get paid their monthly distribution, you know, for a few months. I'm like, dude, if you did a 401k, you wouldn't get any distributions for decades, you know? So it's a brilliant model for Wall Street. Yeah. Yeah, this is another thing to just think about is when you put money into a 401k or IRA or mutual fund, how much are you actually learning? How much of, like, is that, how is that activity enhancing you as a father, as a husband, as a business leader, as a thought leader? Right. Arguably, I would love someone to say like, no, like this is like, by me investing more into a mutual fund, like this is the, this is how it enhances my brain. Whereas going outside of that, you know, and investing in things that you can actually correlate, like, I'm investing in this, this is where values created. Here's the mistakes, the failures. Like, yeah. Even if it even if it loses big, the learning that you're gonna have is pretty profound. Now you could say the same thing. You lose in your 401k, there's learning there as well. I just like, I'm a big fan of like, if I'm gonna do an activity, what are all the ways that I win? And I very much like, I want to, I want to operate at a higher frequency. And I don't want to be like this wishy, washy, hippy person, but I like, I really do believe like, what you think about where your mindset is. Like, that's really powerful. And it's like, I want to put myself in good mental headspace. Yeah, funny story. Like, it reminds me, so when I was coaching people, I also partnered with Garrett White. Now I'm here at Jay White, you know, Wake of Order stuff, right? And I had some family members that they got invested in some things. Now they had an investment guy that was great. They were in first position, meaning that, they loaned the money to him that if anything, you know, when he got sold off, the first ones get paid, they did a second deal with him, didn't look at the paperwork. They were in third position. So think of it like, if you have a mortgage, right? You know, you have a first mortgage, then you have a second mortgage, and imagine somehow you got a third mortgage, right? That's the last thing you get paid. If there's any money left, they lost everything. I think they lost something like 150,000, and they were definitely bitter. That was some of the good chunk of the retirement. And I remember they sat down with Garrett, and I was there, and of course, I'm a little bit sheepish because they're a family member. I don't have to see him at Thanksgiving, right? And he said, what'd you learn from that investment? They said, oh, I'll never invest money with that, that crook again. And Garrett just looked at him in the stare to face and says, shame on you. Shame on you. That's all you learned. That's pathetic. And these guys are like 70. And at the time, Garrett's like, we were both in our 30s, right? Early to mid 30s. And he's like chewing people out twice his age. Like shame on you. Like, that's all you got out of it. You didn't learn the lesson. You should lose more money until you do. And I was like, okay, that's it. It's gonna be awkward for Thanksgiving from this point on. Yeah, yeah. I was like, I mean, he turned around. It's like, listen, like, you gotta learn more than just not invest with that person. You gotta learn like, what did you do? What was your part? What were the red flags? What could have been done differently? Once that conversation happened, then it was productive. And that allowed them to keep more of their money later, right? It allowed them to be a wiser at thing. Because if you have a loss, learn from it. That could be the one thing that helps you make millions. Where it might cost you 100,000, but it might help you make millions in the future. I don't want to put words in your mouth that you are a fan of using life insurance and investing as a, you know, and asset. Yes. Now, you said in the interview that you connected with and worked with Garrett Gunderson, you've been connected with Garrett White. Did you understand life insurance before meeting them or what's your journey, life insurance journey? And then let's talk about why life insurance versus all the other places that you could save your money. And then I would love to hear like your thoughts on infinite banking and what other people use and the good, the bad, the ugly, as Chris Miles would say from a standpoint of what you like and dislike about the life insurance investing game. Hey, it's Caleb Williams here. I'm just interrupting this video quickly to invite you to check out our asset vault. You may have been there. We've actually revamping it. And if you are somebody that wants to learn more about his life insurance right fit for me, does this and that's it makes sense? Like does this actually help me be more efficient? We've put together a 10 minute documentary style video and I can test a really, really good job giving the history why the end asset, different setups and designs that we use. And then we have an end asset vault that gives like case studies, calculators, handbooks and so much more. We are here to serve you whether it's a conversation, whether it's education or the video. So make sure to go check out endasset.com slash vault. Learn more. Yeah, so I first heard about in 2006 when I was learning about all the real estate investing. So I'm getting eyes open to everything. And then in that group of the real estate investors, a bunch were raving about Nelson Nash Infinite Banking. Never heard of it before. I'm like, I was a financial advisor for four years. I never heard this Infinite Banking concept thing. So I read the book by Nelson Nash, right? And I was like, okay, this is kind of cool. Like this is, you know, you finance cars and do that kind of stuff, right? Well, I remember meeting with a guy and this is before I met Garrett Gunnerson or even Garrett White for that matter just before. And I sat down with a guy and he said, yeah, this is how it works, this is how he set it up. It's with whole life. I'm like, whole life insurance? That's like crappy insurance. At least do variable universal life or index universal life because I was selling that like when it was brand new, you know, at least do those things. We can make market returns. And they're like, nope, this is the best way to do it. And I didn't fully understand it, but eventually like, I'm like, these guys are smart. They're doing real estate. I'll drink the cool aid, right? Well, the way he designed this, I said, this is really expensive. Like, is there a way to make this better? And he says, no, this is the way you do it. In fact, if you put any more money in, you're gonna get taxed on this. So don't do it. I'm like, okay, I believe you. Well, that was 2006. 2008, I went from millionaire to upside down millionaire. Wow. So I went from financially free to all of a sudden in the whole, I was over a million dollars in debt. I was about $16,000 short each month between business and personal life, you know, my expenses. And so I couldn't afford to keep paying my premium. And I ended up losing that policy. I paid 25 grand into it, had zero to show for it. It was like the most expensive rip off termissions I could have ever got, but it was whole life, right? Well, it was just a few months later that, you know, I was talking with a mutual client. Some people might know Patrick Donohoe, you know, has paradigm life. Him and I were comparing notes because he was just getting into the insurance game. He's like, you can actually do this thing called paid up additions. You can actually put more in. I'm like, you can overfund it. He's like, yeah, I'm like, those are the exact words I asked him, he told me no. So I started doing my own research back then. Funny how it was like, you could actually do that. I'm like, the numbers are better. In fact, if I would have done it this way, I would not have lost my policy. It would have kept going because there had been cash to help whether that storm, right? Because I had some liquidity, but that liquidity was gone so fast that I had no real buffer at that point. Well, I remember I sat down with that insurance agent. And for two hours, I'm sitting in his office running numbers because I ran my own numbers because I was insurance licensed still. And he was running numbers because he had to show, you'd have to have the same death benefit, right? Because it's the human life value you've got to protect and all this stuff, right? Well, he showed me all this stuff. I'm like, I'll match your death benefit and raise you some cash value. And at the end of the day, I said, look, you would have as much, if not more cash value, even with the same death benefit. Why did you do this? And after he was done, he just said, Chris, I designed it that way because I can't afford to cut my commissions. Boom. I'm like, there's the truth finally out of your mouth. And this is the guy that was always talking about value, you know, creating value for people and stuff. He had partnered with Gary Gunnerson in his first business and stuff. And yet, he was still doing what was in his best interest not the client. We go to conferences all the time. And what we always hear behind the scenes is, yeah, because we ask, like, what's the most efficient way? And people are like, yeah, but Caleb, like, you have his team, you want to, like, yeah, you got to find that happy medium. And I'm like, if you do the right thing for the client, like the best thing for the client, that like, karma is a real thing. Like, they will talk, do the right thing. Amazon wasn't like, hey, we're gonna like try to like, like, they dominate for better or worse. Amazon's not a perfect case study across the board. They dominate because they're client or customer focused. Yeah. And it's too bad that a lot of the industry is built around scarcity. And the moment that you're thinking about your own pocketbook, it's unfortunate because people get worse products and solutions because of that. Well, and there's so much like dogma with it, right? And I call it dogma. It's not just rhetoric. It's like a religious dogma that people have in the infinite bankies space sometimes. And I know you're not that way. That's why I can feel free to say it. To heck with all the rest of you. But no, but I like, I remember there's a pre podcast. We, AM talk radio, right? Gary Gunnerson had a radio show, and I've been joined them sometimes. And I remember, everyone was getting excited for this debate. A real estate investor was going to come on with Gary Gunnerson to talk about his infinite banking worth it. And the real estate investor was kind of like, I think this infinite banky thing is a bunch of crap. And Gary came on to talk about it. And I'll tell you, like, I was rooting for Gary because obviously I was working with him at the time. He lost that debate. That interesting. Because he was trying to talk about all these hypotheticals and human life value and all that stuff. And permissions slip to spend money. And yeah, I kind of got that. But I'm like, I think then the day of the guy's like, yeah, but I can just invest in real estate, make way more money than what I'll do with you guys. So why should I do it? And I was like, that guy's kind of right. Like I hate to admit it, but he is. And it wasn't until several years later, I kind of find that right balance, right? Like it really was about how do you really minimize those costs, create less drag on the policy so that you have more cash to use. And what blew my mind was of course, that whole compounding versus simple interest. That was the one thing I didn't even understand as a financial advisor is that when you let money save and compound, there's that curve you always see with compounding interest, right? It gets faster and faster. You know, you're 100,000 with 5% goes 105. But that 105 making 5% is 110,100. And then it just keeps going, right? Well, that compounding interest versus the simple interest you pay on the loan, that goes down over time. They kind of have this intersection that happens. And so even though you borrow money, you can even pay a higher interest rate on the loan. But yet still with the tax-free dividends, make more than what they're charging you on the interest. And then you also make money on the real estate. I was like, holy cow, you can actually double it. You can actually make money in two places at once. Yeah, let's put a pin in the simple and compound interest because we could go back there and talk about that. But it's the concept of life insurance versus real estate is very simple for me. Yeah. Life insurance is not an investment, real estate's an investment. Yeah, for me, if I were to debate with somebody, I would lay the playing field and say, okay, let's talk about why real estate is a good or bad investment. Yeah. It hopefully will appreciate growing value. Hopefully you'll create cash flow. You can use leverage to acquire the asset. And there's tax advantages. So for that reason, real estate can be a really good investment. Yeah. Now, let's check the box on, we're going to invest in real estate. Now the question is, how are you going to invest in it? Right. Your money is going to have to reside somewhere. So person, person A puts their money in a high yield savings account, takes that money out for the down payment, maybe uses a little bit. Yeah. And maybe uses leverage and gets that asset and that asset's amazing. Right. And it's awesome. Maybe person B uses overfunded life insurance. Right. Maybe if we're being honest, it might start off slower. Yeah. Okay. But there's other benefits to life insurance. Yeah. And like safety benefits, tax benefits, death benefits. There's other benefits. And if you don't value any of that stuff, then quite frankly, I don't like don't do it. But the more I've seen it, it's like, man, I'm a big, big fan of life insurance. All the benefits that you can't necessarily measure on a calculator. And the same ability to be able to go grab that investment, that real estate, you know, in the first five, 10 years, not nothing crazy. Yeah. 50 years, the person that is putting their foundation in a multi-dimensional asset, that's like protection first, but also gives them control and liquidity. Yeah. We're talking from the cash value standpoint, millions of dollars of difference. But that's just like IRR. That's just one benefit. Yeah. That's for me is the epiphany. That's why I'm love whole life because I don't want to over amplify like the possibilities of something on an illustration 10, 20, 30 years from now. Right. And I'm not just a foundational, but I also want people to know that this is not an investment because the moment we try to compare it to an investment, we lose or we look really, really petty. And I got, you know, I got in the insurance space and the message was 401K suck, the tax referral sucks. And even if you read the and asset book, the book that put me on the map in a lot of these areas, I had a lot of that energy of like, this is why life insurance is the best thing. I still stand by that. But it's not even in the same, I don't need to like bash any other investments. It's like, if you love the stock market, use life insurance and the stocks. That's amazing. Do that. If you like real estate, it's an end. And so that's, I mean, curious to hear your thoughts on that, like the way I articulated that. Like what do you like about that? What would you improve? Yeah. Subtract. Like what are your thoughts around around that message? I love you see there because there are some influencers who will name names out there about infinite banking. They'll say it's an investment. Yeah, illegal to say for one, right? It's a tax-free savings account. It's really what it is with insurance as a component. They definitely have it, right? And I'll tell you, here's how I use mine. Like I actually use it as a way to store my liquid cash. Yeah. Because rather than keeping it in the bank, which I don't really trust that banks are going to be that great at doing business anyways, especially when we had those bank failures last year, like how do I trust that this and this is going to happen again? I just have the three banks randomly. Come on. Like there's something else happening here. So I can keep it at the bank, maybe point nothing percent and get taxed on that point nothing percent. Or I can keep it here right off the high. I can have one less tax form. I can store my savings for emergencies. And I keep about three quarters of my emergency fund there, a quarter in the bank, right? And then over above that, it's my work gest. I can use that to invest. And if I do it, I only do it for cash-fowing investments. I don't like using it for things that like, like a syndication that might pay off for five years, right? Like it's got to be something that actually has flow to it that can make that compounding simple and simple thing work, you know? But I'm kind of similar to you that way. Like I'm very much like, this is really a good place to store money. And let's look at evidence. Like, I mean, one of the guys on my team that does live insurance, like his dad started with was a founder and a company that was like a stock trading company, right? So the guy trades stocks and options. He's no stranger to that. He makes money there. He'll tell you out of his own mouth. And it's like, my number one consistent thing I can always count on was my life insurance. Like that was the one thing, you know, of his investments and businesses and savings. That was the one thing he could count on. Right? And even like, I had Eddie Wilson on my show recently, right? And it was even part of the conversation. He was just talking about how his grandfather had been a president of a bank and he taught him the strategy we're talking about right now. It's cool. So like bankers are using it. Actually, I was just on a hike here in Hawaii, you know, talking with the MC Lobster, right? Cashful Ninja. And I was like, what got you into this direction? Like from, you know, doing like, you know, everything from martial arts to rugby. He's like, oh, I met a guy that came from a family that owned banks and would store their cash there. They wouldn't store it in their own banks. They would store their cash in life insurance. And he's like, I want to know why. Yeah. Like, there's so many of those stories, right? It's like, okay, all those people are on YouTube and maybe even right now making comments saying like, oh, you guys are, you guys are selling it. Well, yeah, we're selling it, but we used it first. Like, I didn't sell it. I didn't want to sell it, you know? Well, and give me a good reason why not. And most, most people when they make comments, I invite them on the show. No one's taking me up on that someday they will. And I just, I genuinely want to hear like, like, because if you can show me why this is not a good deal, I'm out. I'm out. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong. I'm willing to say like, yeah, I'm, this is, if there's a better way, great, but a better way is you can't just look at, you can't just look at internal rate return and just say, like life insurance is just internal rate return. You have to like, what result versus result? There's a person A versus person B. And that's why it's like, what would this look like now and in the future with this scenario versus this scenario? And, and if you truly can create scenarios to be better, you should go do it. And that's why you're a fan of certain assets versus the other. You know, it's, we're always, we're always have this internal opportunity cost calculator going on in our head, whether we know it or not, we only have so many limited choices. Right. Let me ask you this, life insurance, what do you like about what you're hearing on the internet and what do you like, what drives you crazy when you see like TikToks or YouTube or like, like, tell me, what do you like that you're hearing and what do you despise what you're hearing right now in that life insurance space? Yeah, I mean, so I was trying to call an investment, which is completely false. Yeah. Right. You can't say that one thing I don't like hearing is when people say, I'm going to buy my car with it. Yeah. Because again, I can, now I come from an investor perspective and I know why Nelson Nash talked about it because one, he wrote this in the 90s, right? He's writing when the interest rates were sky high. Insurance loans rates were much, much lower. So in an environment where there's like sky high interest rates and then the loan rates are lower, it could make sense. And he was talking to like the Dave Ramsey people, the people that want to be cash on the anyways, right? Just give a different option to say, it's like having a loan, but you really don't have a loan, right? But when they start saying, oh, you should buy cars with it, you should buy houses with it. I think false because I want to use the bank's money as much as I possibly can, especially of his cheap. Like I just got a 3.9% loan rate on my own car. And no, I'm not a car salesman. I literally went into a dealership, bought a car and I got offered a 3.9 rate. That's like, well, that's a lot cheaper than what most people are getting right now. I'm going to take it. And I had the cash to pay for it. I could even, in cash alone from the bank or I could have used my policy. I didn't do that because one, if the policy is one rate is going to be like 6% or more, I'm going to pay higher interest anyways. That's another thing I don't like when they say you pay yourself back. Bull, you are paying interest to another bank called insurance company. That's where the money goes. It's not going to you. It's going to them. Now, the only reason they say you're paying yourself back is because they're saying instead of making payment to the bank, you make it to yourself, which is really to these insurance companies to pay down your loan for them. Which your part owners in. So I've heard people really skirt around that when I ask some question. I'm like, I think we confuse a lot of people when we say you're paying yourself back interest. Because when you hear that, you're literally thinking, I'm literally writing a check to myself. Like a 401k loan. And it's not the case. It's almost like if you're a part owner in a bank and you're paying the bank for a loan and you're saying you're paying yourself back with interest. Right. But I guess the bank is more profitable and that's a good thing. You know, but no, I mean, you're still earning interest on the money. It's in there. You never took it out. You're borrowing money from them like to the bank. So you will pay them interest. But the difference is you're actually getting paid interest too, right? But still, like when they say that stuff, like, oh, yeah, you're paying yourself back. No, you're not. You might be paying making payments to your personal family bank or whatever you want to call it, right? But it's not true. What are your thoughts when people are like, we need to stuff all your money into life insurance. I know that there's some people that are super aggressive that and then my next question is the people that are pitching income from, you know, 20, 30 years from now your income is just going to blow everything. Like it's going to be amazing because of arbitrage and all these things. So number one, what are your thoughts on people that are like put all your money into life insurance and number two, what are your thoughts on people that are literally saying life insurance for income in the future only using life insurance? Yeah. The whole thing about like throw your money in there, no, like let's be honest, I got a rat race twice, right? Again, in 2016 when I went back in the rat race with the recession took me till the end of 2016 to get there again. I didn't use life insurance to get there, right? Like I was just using cash on my own pocket to do that. I think it's important that people understand that life insurance isn't necessarily going to make you. It's very much, it's like once you make the money, it's a great foundational place to keep store, use, protect. But I sometimes get people that are like, this is my solution. Like nothing else has worked. And so magically having life insurance is going to like make me rich and it's like no, it's not, but continue. No, you're totally right. So again, I doesn't mean you can't do what you're building it because I can't do people do that all the time. But when someone says, hey, I've got, like I had an example of a real estate investor that someone told them, throw in a three-quarters of million dollars up front and then you'll pay a much lower premium on the back end, right? So he was pretty excited. He's like, okay, this sounds good. You know, it sounds like over time, I'm going to make money. I'm like, don't you dare. I said, you could do that. There might be a reason to dump in a ton of cash, but that's rare because all he's doing really, because here's the thing. Insurance agents make all their money in the first year especially, right? So if the youth throw in three-quarters million dollars versus a quarter million, you have to get three times the death benefit, which means they make three times the commissions, right? If you want to know what insurance agents make, just look out what it cost you in that first year and they'll get paid a percentage of that money. That's how you figure it out. Well, like if it's all said he's throwing 750,000 and it wasn't even designed as good as it could have been, still, it's like you have like a couple hundred thousand coming out. That means the agent may probably up to a couple hundred grand to have you do that deal. Wow. I told him, he's like, listen, here's what you can do instead. And I was like, what are you saving per year? He's like, probably about 200,000 plus, maybe a quarter million a year. And like, great. Instead of dumping in three-quarter million, let's do a quarter million a year as your max contribution. That's not even the minimum you can do, right? You could do like 50,000 a year, give or take. Do that. I'm like, you can still invest the other half million into something else, get extra cash while if you have the half million making you 10%, that's 50,000 a year, that basically guarantees you can make your payments every year if you have a minimum, you know? I was like, do that instead of just trying to throw all your cash in. I'm like, that's how you know they're insurance agent because they're not investors. They would not do that. They would say, hey, I'll throw in some money in here and I like it in there. Because especially when you protect it from lawsuits, creditors, depending on the state you're in, awesome. But don't just dump in a ton of cash because that's the agent says, that's usually because they want to get paid a lot more. Yeah. Yep. And what's your thoughts on income? Have you seen like, there's a, this is common in IUL where it's just like, hey, and it drives me nuts. Oh, me too. And just like, you're literally showing an illustration and you're telling me 20, 30 years from now, this is what it's going to happen. Like, there's so many unknowns. I think it's criminal quite frankly and I hope I'm not a big regulation person, but I hope it's like very, very clear that people probably shouldn't be doing that because it looks good on paper and it's just not going to happen. 100% it's not going to happen. And so continue. I just, I'm like, what are your thoughts on that? Because they would say they're talking about the same thing. They're talking about cash flow and all these things and it's tax advantage. And they're not wrong. Like everything that they're saying is true. The thing that I don't like is you're basing on a projection and there's a lot of variables that go into making that projection right, wrong or horrible. That's why this covers a traditional advisor. So I started selling off like, if I did live insurance, I would sell out like variable universal life. And the Y2K happened and the market got trashed. So then we started moving over towards IULs to say, well, at least you have a floor. So if the market goes down and you're protected, but you also have a ceiling. Back in those days, the ceilings were at least 12. There's even one company I used, Fidelian Guarantee. It was a 17% cap. So of course, it was easy for us to illustrate eight, nine percent net returns on that. You won't see that nowadays because those cap rates have gradually come down over time. And that's the problem is that they can adjust those caps and everything and that throws off the numbers. So you're right. It's like over promise. It's, you know, it's over promise. It's always over promise, you know, with under deliver in that case. And so, and here's the bigger problem is that in the last 15 years, since 2009, we've had one down year in 2022. You know, 2016 was like really close. It was flat, right? But we have had no down years. The typical market, the stock market is the Wall Street Walls. Two steps forward, one step back, two years up, one year down or about five years up, two years down. So in 15 years, instead of having six years down like the average, we've had one year down, that is a problem. Yeah. So when people were like, oh, should I get an IUL? I was like, an IUL could work for you. Yeah. Like it could work. Here's the thing, wait till the market crashes. If you got in 2009 and got an IUL, you're loving life because the market's been up, up and away, right? Even a VUL, you've been loving life. Yeah. But right now, where we've hit market highs, and I think the market's overinflated, it's a huge gamble. I don't think you're going to get the kind of returns they're showing you in those illustrations. And all the income that you possibly get is all based. Here's what happened with me. Like when I was a financial advisor, the thing that got me to stop selling index universal life was actually training it to new agents. Because when I would teach new agents about how it all worked, because most people, other agents were more just stock market people. But I actually dropped my securities license in 2005 and focused on that instead. And funny enough, I was actually dropped my securities license so I could actually trade stocks and options and teach people how to do it. Well, because I was a stock trader myself at one point. So anyways, so I was teaching them about it and then they'd say, hey, well, what if this happens? What if the market goes down or what if the cap rates change? What if this change or what if the insurance costs keep going up and they try to pull money out? They ask all these good questions. So I'm like, ooh, yeah, that's weakness. That could be a bad thing. And that's one thing I've seen. When you see conservative returns on those index universal life, will they show you the alternate return versus just the non-guaranteed return they try to show you at six, seven percent? Well, look at that. If it gets like three or four percent, which I may or may not get, man, it's a difference. It's a very different. And it even blows up. It does. Eventually, and you have to fork out more money to keep going where whole life, I could stop funding after seven years and let it ride. And just to be clear, I'm very, like, I don't like to be like pro this and try this. I'm very like, I'm not trigger. You can't trigger me when it comes to this stuff. Like, great. Like, let's look at that. I just don't like, I find that a lot of people don't know the full picture, full story, and it's not as black and white as some people want to know. That's the thing. Are you all could win if you were in a market bottom and you get better than average returns in the market? That's where you can win. The level's advocate to that is yes, it could win, but like, you could also probably do way better than what an IUL could do from a rate or a turn standpoint. So why don't you just do whole life and whatever that thing is versus, yeah, maybe crushing it with an IUL. Right. Invest in your business. Invest in real estate. Invest in things that actually could produce better returns. So let's talk about the guru advice out there. Okay. Like, four one K. I'm going to team you up. I'm going to be Chris Miles, greatest hits right here. What are some of the things that are just general isms? It could be from Dave Ramsey or other people out there that you're like, this is what they're saying and this is why it's wrong. And let's just just fire away. Yeah. I mean, the two financial guys I've been talking about the most and doing react videos too. Probably like you have been Dave Ramsey and Rameet Sette, right? Which is really Rameet. I was head hope for him and I realized, oh, he's just Dave Ramsey and younger, you know, more than you are. He's just a liberal Dave Ramsey. He's just a liberal Dave Ramsey. In fact, I just had a video come out about rent versus buy because Dave is all about buying house where he's all about renting. And I was like, they're both right. You know, I think that's one problem I have with those kind of guys that there's always absolutes, right? Like Dave Ramsey blesses Tennessee heart, right? As he would say, he's great at budgeting and he's decent at the debt payoff, even though I created a better way to do it. But I mean, he does care to some level. But I don't like though, his pitch has always been the same. And doesn't matter if new data comes out, he will always keep beating the same drum saying the same things. One, one thing I don't like is he makes it seem like if you're a saver, you're the minority. Everybody in the world are spenders, right? You know, let's criticize them. Let's just judge them like, you know, unholy man he is, right? Like just judge the crap out of them. But here's the truth of those people who have 401k plans. They don't have the money to save it and they'll find something else to do, right? Of those that can save 401k plans, 52% actually do. And there's guys like me that could save an 401k plan that thinks it's a joke and I won't save it, right? Or there's other people that might want to pay off their debt first. Like maybe they want to pay off their debt or student loans because Dave told them to, he'll do that before they start, you know, putting money in 401k. That would lead me to believe that I would say conservatively, 55 to 60% of people are savers, not spenders. So when he's trash talking all of them, the reason why he's made so much money is because he's talking to the majority. And the people that actually have money are the majority, right? Because the people that buy a stuff are not the spenders. They don't like it. It's the savers that have spender family members or friends. They say, I'm going to buy it for them, right? So you're going to be interesting inside. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, that's the thing. Most people aren't savers and it hasn't worked yet. Yeah. Another example, I mean, and this kind of goes along with what Dave talks about, but fidelity, you know, they have the largest 401k database, 45 million people. Of those 45 million, only $810,000 currently have at least a million dollars. Yeah. So if saving that 401k of those mutual funds are so good as he says, and saving just $100 a month for 40 years will get you there. And just so you know, next year will be the 40th anniversary that average Americans were able to save in 401k. It's 1985 with a match. Yeah. Right. Even with a match, you know, it's not like 50 bucks. I get 50 bucks, right? Yeah. People are saving more than that. Yeah. But think about it. Maybe $810,000, it's about 1.7% of people have at least a million dollars. Yeah. And then Trans-America does a survey of those same people and said, how many of you guys think you're, you're free? Like what level? 35% of those that had a million dollars or more that $810,000 said they would quote, take a miracle to be able to retire. Yeah. Because they know that 3% is not going to last them. So think about it. He's been teaching that and banging that drum forever, telling people you're going to be free, you're screaming at Braveheart music, you get debt free, you're free. It's a ball. It's total bull crap. I bought it into it. I used to believe that too. And I realized I wasn't any closer than anybody else. And financial advisors have been doing it forever. They're not any closer because if you take away their commission, so you take away their assets and their management that they get paid on, their broke is everybody else, you know? So where's that truth? So I like, again, like, and even if somebody comes out with data saying, even their financial advisors think, well, Dave, actually, the returns are this much now. He'll say, that's crap. Even with George, I mean, he got George to recant it, even though George's told truth, right? So that's your mission, right? Yeah. And yeah, he trashes talks on whole life and he'll like drop words like paid up additions, like he knows what he's talking about, but he doesn't, right? Now I would agree that a lot of the traditional whole life plans out there, like infinite banking plans, do suck, you know? They could do way better. And he would be right there. But he just, what do you think about Dave Ramsey? Well, like I said, I think he does care about people. Here's what I like. Do what he does, not what he says. Yeah. Here's the two places he made all of his hundreds of millions dollars. He's worth 600, almost $700 million right now. One was he does a great job with business, great investment is your own business. And then two is real estate, which he brags about having hundreds of millions in real estate, you know, paid off, free and clear, of course, right? But he didn't talk about all the money he made in the stock market. All that money, he wouldn't have all that real estate if he didn't generate the cash first from his business, from his business. Absolutely. He's the go when it comes to branding, consistency, speaking. Absolutely. You know, great marketer that way. I mean, he is simple. I mean, he teaches it so simply, even if it's false, he's kind of like Donald Trump, right? Like in fact, Jack Donald Trump, you're like, dude, it doesn't matter if I think you're great or not, you are kind of a liar, you know? It's the same thing with Dave Ramsey. Like, and I wonder if he actually thinks he's lying, if he's bonded to it so well. And also again, do I agree with everything that Dave Ramsey says? No, but he would do more harm by saying, well, okay, debt could be good in this circumstance, because now he gives everybody that probably shouldn't, should be cutting out their credit cards now a loophole. And so like for him, he's got to double down and he's a perfect example of this. Two examples recently. Tom Stefan literally said, if I gave you a billion dollar loan at zero percent interest, would you take that? Yeah. And he said no. Yep. He had to say no because it would be hypocritical, I'm trying to say yes. But Dave Ramsey's talented enough, I mean, you could literally put that in a treasury. Like guaranteed interest rate. And that could be, that would be like $50 million. Okay. So that's an example. Another person, Andre said, if I gave you a Bitcoin, would you accept it? Uh-huh. And he said no. And he literally said that would be hypocritical. It would be not right of me to say Bitcoin's bad investment and accept that. Yeah. Now, again, I actually appreciate that because he has values. Like if someone said, Caleb, do you want to invest in this amazing investment? But they were doing shady stuff or things that would go against my values. Right. I would be like, no, I don't want that sturdy money. I don't want that. And he literally believes that anything that's involving around debt or saying these things are quote unquote dirty money. And so for that, I admire him, but also I love using those examples because I can literally it proves my point. It really proves my point is you're like, if you think that's dumb for you to not take a 0% loan and or get free Bitcoin, like I might not be the biggest fan of Bitcoin, but I'll take your Bitcoin. Absolutely. Yeah. So it's like, there's no ego. Yeah, I'm a Bitcoin fan at all. Yeah, but it's just like, why wouldn't I? You know what I'm saying? Exactly. Those are two examples of like date. That's what makes Dave Ramsey so great is he doesn't, is he doesn't budge? And because of that consistency compounding over time, he's had all these things. And yeah, real estate's great. He's a ton of money and mutual funds, but all of those are possible because he's he's generating that in business and he's iconic. And he would not have what he has today if it wasn't for his business. That's right. If you if you teach simply and you hard, you have hard rules, it's easy to understand, right? It's like it's like going to kindergarten, you know, it's like, okay, I've got this. And I kind of compare that too. It's like, it's like going to remedial math and college. You know, there's all kinds of other math out there that's still true, but you just need to go back to the basics. That's who's for. Like I said, though, most people that list to him aren't the people he's talking to. Like the people he's condemning. He's talking to the people that are aren't savers. They don't want to get dead already. He's just supporting the narrative they already have in their mind. I think you're right. There's a lot of people that I run into are people that are savers, but they're not multiplying their money. Right. And they're like there, but I haven't necessarily met like most people that are chronically have problems with money aren't listening to Dave Ramsey. They're listening to music or Mr. P's. Exactly. Exactly. So it is an interesting concept. I do I do know people that you know Dave Ramsey woke up. Yeah. And they're in a better place because he spoke with conviction and gave them hope. He did. He had one of my clients from Idaho like 20 years ago because they were horrible spenders. They didn't have any money to spend. And he helped them. He got them organized with their finances. That's again, if he just focused on that. Yeah. That's great. But the problem is now he chose to become the expert of all money. What do you think your hottest take is just in life? My hottest taken life. Well, we'll say in the financial life. I would say this. I mean, we've talked about a lot of stuff, right? And obviously, like my whole take about financial advisors and stuff because I used to be one, right? I'm like a recovering addict. You know, these people financial advisor. Now I'm not. But I'll tell you like the whole reason I name my company Money Ripples. Like it was actually the time right before. It was like, I really feel like it was the God send for me, right? Because it was right before Garrett Gunnerson and I parted ways and we split companies. And I went to create money ripples. So before I did that, I didn't have a name for my company. I was trying to find something. I was like, okay, show up. I sent it with cash for one. Oh, that's 10 grand. I buy that website, you know, or this or that. And I remember I was on a run, you know, and almost all my great ideas happened when I'm on a run, which is like the worst time sometimes or in the shower, right? I call it the shower of power, you know, and get those downloads. And I was on a run. I was like, well, what's my real vision? And I envision a world and maybe not too different from like Dave Ramsey in some ways, like I thought about like the couple I had helped where we helped them free up 6,000 a month, paying off some of their loans and debts by getting creative. And that 6,000, they actually bought a four-wheeler, but that's 6,000 bucks, which Dave would have hated. Ramsey would have been like, you guys should go to hell, you know? But they weren't that way. In fact, his wife, I remember she came to me, she's like, Chris, like the reason we did that is because my husband felt he had to work five or six days a week. Now that 6,000 more a month, he can take that day off. Now we're having weekends as a family. I got my husband back and my kids got their father back. And I was like, that is why I do what I do. And I thought about what it did, not just for that couple, but what does that teach the kids, right? Like what is that? What kind of lazy to leave behind for them? And how does that even influence them? By them relaxing, I know some of the people are like so focused on their own money that they can't look around themselves. And when you open up that vision and say, well, who else is around me? Who else can I serve? Who's alive? Can I actually bless? Because as I'm blessed financially, I can bless more lives, right? I can create a magnification of my stewardship. And so I saw that as like, it's not just the family, but there's a ripple effect generation-wise. There's a community, the country, and ultimately across the world. And that's when all of the worse hit my mind, money ripples. And I was like, there, like that's it. I ran home, bought it for $7.95 from GoDaddy, way cheaper than 10 grand. And that's what it really is. And like, that's my ultimate message and mission, right? It's not just about getting rich, it's about living a rich life. And I know you're about that too, is that how do we really go about becoming really blessed with the talents and everything that God has given us to use it to bless more lives? And if you're an abundant minded person, not just getting financially free, not just getting out of the rat race, right? But taking that money, using that to amplify your mission on this planet, something that no one else can do, now you become an instrument in the hands of God, now you're blessing lives in a way that no one else can. And death will happen if you just keep saving in your 401k, just trying to get debt free, focusing on just hopefully taking care of family when you take care of the bigger human family worldwide. Yep. Before I ask you one last question, I have a question going back to debt. Yeah. You said that you had a better way to pay off death in day-primacy, wondering if you just want to touch on that, that I'll let you kind of share anything else that you want to share before I hit you with my final legacy question. You bet. I mean, I used the cash flow index. In 2008, like I said, it was over a million dollars in debt. I had very limited funds. I was like, what do I pay off? Or do I invest this money? Do I pay it off? I pay off a debt or invest the money. And at first, I was just trying to calculate a rate of return. I was like, what's the cash and cash ROI of doing that? But I knew if I was trying to teach somebody else that, they're like, I can't figure that out. So I turned into an index where I just take the balance alone, divided by the minimum monthly payment, and that gives me a number. And the lower the number, the more I pay it off, especially if it's below a 40. Right? There's some people out there that still teach my old stuff that says like 50 or below. I think it's 40 below. And if it's a fixed payment, like a low interest payment, I wait till it's 20 or below before I pay off like a car loan or a mortgage or a student loan. I wait till it gets below a 20. And that just tells you it reverses engineers around cash flow. It says how efficient. So a lower, a lower number means it's cash flow hogging more versus a higher number. It's meaning it's more efficient from a standpoint of a cash flow. Exactly. Like say that you have a $10,000 credit card, right? And it's $200 bucks a month. You know, that's $2,400 a year. You pay that off. That's like a 24% rate of return. It's also an index of a 50, right? Yeah, like $10,000 by $250. Yeah. But what if I had a $10,000 car loan, that's $500 a month, right? Now Dave Ramsey would say go pay off that high interest credit card, get rid of it, right? But I would say the opposite. I would go for the $500 a month. Because like I said before in the beginning, you have more cash flow. You create options and we have more options. That's where there's freedom, right? And so when you've got that $500 a month paid off and I've had people like online like, no, you can't do it. Pay off the credit card. Pay off both. I agree with you. Pay off both. Yeah. But if I pay off that $500 a month, the thing is life isn't predictable. Sometimes crap happens, right? To put it lightly. So what do I do? Like if I've lived that 500 a month, I know if something goes wrong in my finances, I would much rather be paying a $200 a month payment than a $500 a month payment. I don't care about the interest. And I know that because I was flat broke. I didn't care about the interest anymore. I cared about how do I get rid of this debt? How do I get the point where I'm at least paycheck to paycheck versus not paycheck to paycheck, right? And so that's why I said, well, that $10,000 by $500 payment is a 20. Pay off that car loan. You get that $500. You can always add to the $200 a month credit card. You'll still pay off in about a year and you don't really get charged up much interest. It's amazing how people come up with crazy numbers like, oh, pay 1,000 interest. No, you'll pay. Well, I mean, credit cards are, it could be over 30%. Even that because it's such a short period of time and that simple interest going down. So quickly as you pay it down with that $500, it works. But again, if it's something goes wrong, you don't have to pay that extra $500. You can say, I've got that cash still in my hands. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's a great framework to reverse engineer debt and look at it as an asset. So you have a debt portfolio and an asset portfolio. And you're able to, if you're going to compare assets with cash flow, you should do the same with that. And instead of what, instead of debt being like bringing in money, it's reverse. But then you want to eliminate the toxic debt. I, it would be interesting. My analytical brain is like, mathematically, you would still be better off paying the credit card down first. But you're saying sometimes and going back to Dave Ramsey, clearly it's a, there's a, there's a motion driven to that. And so I think it's like figure out some framework and stick with it. Yeah. I appreciate you saying that. I did touch earlier when we were talking about amortized interest versus simple interest versus compound interest. Yeah. Todd Langford and I did a really interesting video about this and his, and he made a really good point at what she said, every interest is compound interest. And this is what he says, when you factor in opportunity cost, when you're amortizing, if we factor in opportunity cost, essentially the principle is, if you're, if you're earning 4% and paying off 4% loan, yes, your interest earned over the next 30 years is going to be greater than the interest paid down. Right. But that's an apples to orange comparison. So when you factor in opportunity cost over 30 years, it's actually the same. So but if, but if you're paying 3% debt and earning 5, but that obviously, it's, so that's just, that's literally just math. Yeah. And unfortunately math like, that's like almost never the factor or it's factors all about mental or other other things. And again, it's like I would even, I shock a lot of people saying this, I would even pay more interest to have control of my money because I value control and what could happen over the next 30 years than not. And so there's other things that go into that. But you know, I think the simple interest, amortized interest and compound interest is a good concept. But I think it's another way that we can lie for sure using math, you know what I'm saying? So Ben Stein says, figures don't lie, but letters figure. Yeah, yeah. Well, I just remember in college, we were like, we, we were in this marketing class and it was a joke. Yeah. Other joke. And we had to like grow this company, Facebook page and like we would be like, we grew this by 100%. It's like, yeah, we took it from two people to four people. Yeah. You know what? And so it was just like, it was, it was like, we were like, try, like working around and instead of like providing value to the person, we were trying to figure out how to make us look good using math. And it's just like, that's crazy. But it's like everyone does that. That's where it's like, totally. I'm so skeptical when people would, people throw math at me. It's like, okay, you can almost use any type of numbers to, to, it's true with your agenda. Is there anything else that you want to say before I hit you with my last question? Yeah. Like, you asked about like, I don't know if it pay off or not. The first time I actually realized it, this even before I created it. The first time I realized it was actually as a financial advisor. We created this little Excel spreadsheet that would take literally sometimes 10, 20 minutes to calculate the fastest way of the off debt. And it always shocked me that oftentimes it would say, it would put the credit card as the minimum payment, like towards the back. It would have some of these low interest loans that pay off first because they had a shorter term to them or something like that. Kind of like the, the car loan example, right? Yeah. So it would like mix around to figure out what would be the highest if you did the whole debt snowball, which would pay it off faster. And it wasn't always interest rate and it wasn't always the lowest balance. It was, it was a mixture of those two. And that's when I realized like, oh, it comes back to the cash flow. And that's the one that's been the most accurate. And you're right, it doesn't always, like you might, you might save a month. And it's really like that small to do something else. But there's that emotional piece of like, wait, I just got that paid off. Well, and sometimes you don't even need extra cash. Like, yeah, like I had a client where she came to us to invest in real estate. They're like, they had $5 million in like meta, Apple type stocks. And we're like, okay, go, have your money in like Google and stuff. That's kind of a big risk. That's a lot of money to have in like one type of tech stock. And they're all tech stocks. And so she's like, yeah, we want to do some real estate to diversify some more. Well, when we're looking at the situation of the cash flow, I said, well, actually, if we refinance your mortgage and we actually do some things to pay off some of these other loans, we'll free up $3,800 a month. And so, and so before even did anything we've talked about investing, we're like, let's do that first. Yeah. Because that's almost zero money out of pocket for you. 3,800 a month. That's 45 grand a year for free. It's an infinite rate of return, right? Let's do that. And then, and then I was like, oh, wait, you're over paying taxes. We'll save you 30 grand on taxes. I know you guys do that kind of stuff with your company, right? It's like, found out they could save 30 grand a year on taxes. So they're like, they're saving you a 75 grand a year before you even invest a dime. And then of course, they make a couple hundred thousand with their investments and stuff. And that that's the fun thing. Like that's what I really get joy out of is like, you can really get so creative with cash flow and improving things. And the only reason I learned that's because I went broke so many times. Yeah. I have a good career in my own situation. If you're going to talk about cash flow from an asset standpoint, you should be consistent across the board. And there's problems with inconsistencies when it comes to when I think about debt, I think about it with this hat on. But when I think about assets, I think about this, really it should be the same hat. It should work together. Because everything is essentially, if I'm going to do everything has a ripple effect. You like that? If I make a decision here, it's going to affect me over here and vice versa. Absolutely. Last question. This is your last banner that you're with the people that you love the most. And you couldn't give them any podcast book. You just had a conversation. What would you cover in that conversation? I would probably, I would almost probably tell them to read the book, Wouldn't. You know, I remember, like John Wooden when he's live at UCLA basketball coach, if you don't know, right? I mean, the most winning, winning guest coach, that's the right word. I don't know. Obviously, a huge winning coach. But I remember watching one of the videos he made with an attorney, right? This is back in 2007. Got to watch a video. He was like in his 90s at that point. He hadn't passed away yet. And he was giving his advice to his kids. It was all life advice. It wasn't just money advice. He had some of that too. But he was giving life advice. I can't tell you how much I wanted to be adopted by John Wooden at that point. And so I think for my kids, it'd be something similar. It's kind of like, you know, recently on my podcast, I did a three part series on stewardship, right? Like I really think that everything is about stewardship. You know, like how do you find that combination of your strengths and your experiences and your passions and talents and everything? It's really like the parable of the talents. Yeah. Like how do you apply the parable of the talents in your life? You know, that it allows you to be able to live the fulfilled measure of your creation. Yeah. That's what I want them to know. I can teach them all the financial stuff, but the truth is, they can just go find my podcast. In fact, that's actually why I started doing podcasting. A little of fact was because I thought if I died young, at least I had something for my kids to be behind. But really, that's about that. Like stewardship. Like what are you going to do with your life? How are you going to focus on blessing lives? Because that's where the riches come from. When you create value in other people's lives, you're solving problems, serving people or adding value in such a way that yeah, money will come. But in a way that happiness and joy and love comes as well, that's what's really important. Chris, thank you for taking time to jam with me. I look forward to future conversations and love the hot takes and how your brain works. Appreciate it, man.