Youre Too Soft - Chris Kirkpatrick Presses Caleb About IUL

 I was a, it was like five or six videos for me today. Like today if you saw my calendar is like starting at 10 a.m. I'm like, I'm going to have energy. Dude, I'm more energy now than I have all day. So here's what I want to say. Number one, we, the, you have to look at the timeframe of like the games that we're playing. So it's unfair sometimes to potentially criticize. Like I, and I just, this will be part of my justification is I'm playing a long term game plan. Like I'm going to bring you on conversations that you will never be able to have because I open doors and part of is like, yeah, you could watch the rocket and I actually, what I told you over the phone, I actually think I made really good points to why hold like I was a little bit shocked at the end of that recording. I was like, dang, like I thought, and again, no disrespect, but I thought there was going to be harder, stronger points. And I was actually, maybe it was Rocky who was on the show and he didn't want like, because you know, he can be very strong. But I think it was like on the show, it's like he didn't want to like, steamroll or disrespect me. And so I was actually shocked by some of the points that he was making. And one of the things I think I even said this, I was like, work, you're like, you're actually kind of making my point for me. You know what I'm saying? Your whole point to IUL is like, hey, most IUL companies and people are trash. I actually think we agree more than we disagree. Like if we can agree, like we can agree that the 95% of what's going on is garbage. Okay. Now we can come to the table and I'm not one of these people. I don't think you are on saying that all IUL is trash, but I'm saying if we can throw out 95% of the quote unquote garbage out there, I can now come to conversation. And then the other thing that I'll do is alter all the ultra wealthy. They have like, they're just in a different ballgame than all of us from the standpoint. Yeah, they don't want to lose money. But like, there's a lot of different levers that they have. Whereas a lot of people who are doing IUL as their soul thing, it's a shame and all their money tied up in zero levers. So I'm just more like, that's the framework that I'm coming from. And I actually stand by what I said if you watch the entirety of the, it's not like I was kissing Rocky's butt the whole time. No, of course not. No, I didn't do so in a way of like, hey, I'm going to prove you wrong. I was doing so in a way where I was like going to listen to him knowing that I'm going to host people like you and hopefully bring you two together and have enough credibility to say like, hey, I want to moderate two people. And build the trust with them that they know that you're not going to like sabotage them in that moderation position. I get it. And so, yeah. The challenge is like, I know that Rocky, like, let me use an example, right? So Rocky, Rocky was talking about, was talking about, well, how mathematically IUL is just always better than whole life insurance. And he's like, you can't prove to me mathematically that whole life insurance is going to be IUL. He said some things like, and what drove me nuts is the fact that he's trying to like position like I can't convert whole life insurance agents to IUL agents because they're basically a cult. You let him say that. He called all whole life agents cult, a cult basically, right? That's so F'd up dude. He called us a cult. Well, what about the fact that maybe we just have different values and different beliefs and we have different priorities on control, different priorities on the fact that it's a life insurance contract. And so the rules and the actual words in the contract matter, like those kinds of things. Mathematically, IUL is going to beat whole life every time. I'm not going to deny that when it comes to the current assumptions. He spoke out of both sides of his mouth. IUL is always going to be whole life mathematically. And then he's like, but later in the video, all these cap rates, that's the biggest risk. If cap rates go down to 7.5%, you're screwed. IUL can't even compete. It's not even close. Not even close. And so like two weeks ago, I just did a video on one of the top IUL companies in the country, nationwide. Right? So as I'm going through this video, I'm looking, they sold it with a 12% cap. It's now at a 7.5% cap. They're selling their new products at 11%. It basically vindicates everything I say about the fact that they have high cap rates at the beginning. They write off those cap rates as a marketing expense and they lower the cap rates on enforce policies and keep selling new high cap rate policies. And they use that to finance the sale of new business. That's what they do. This is a standard practice in this business. He admitted it straight up. I know he admitted it. Do you realize how that like, you know how crazy that was that I got him to sit, share that on our channel? It's one of the things. So but that but then what's where's the argument? Right. It's like, you wanted me to be like, argue over, he called whole life as a cult. In some case, there are some whole lifeers like, I don't, okay. Yeah, there are. There are. Yeah, yeah, you would agree to agree on that. Sure. But here's the thing is why like, let's not, that's not a pitch. I need to swing in the dirt. Like, I believe people are smart enough to be like, okay, Rocky, if that's your biggest point, got it. Like, like, it's almost like the political system right now. People saying like, if all you can call is someone a bad word, racist, that like, that's what you have. Great. That's your talking point. It's to me like a weak talking point. If the reason you should vote for me is that I'm not this person, you know what I'm saying? It's just like, I don't let. So that's the thought process. Like my goal in having Rocky was literally to have him lay things out. Let's go over the 14 points. I know I probably didn't push back on the whole time, but like, I left that interview being like, wow, I cannot believe that went the way that I went. It went exactly with I'd hoped. And yes, I was maybe a little bit softer in my approach. But overall, Rocky literally said most I well companies are trash. Most people that sell I well companies are wrong. And I was like, okay, so we can agree that 95% of what's going on is crazy. And he agreed with that. And so I'm like, okay, that's wild that we just like, it's like, I would never say that about whole life of saying like, I guess, I guess the way that it needs to be structured is important. But it's not like even if you set up a whole life policy, it's not like it's going to blow up on you. You know what I'm saying? Well, that's exactly it. I mean, I always say that the main difference between, I mean, there's a lot of differences. But the, the, the, let's take a inexperienced agent, right? Somebody selling an IUL policy at Target Premium, who Rocky will call a bad advisor, right? A bad agent. And let's take a whole life agent selling something at base premium, 100% base, right? 100% target, 100% base. That's the equivalent in the two different types of policies, right? So if we take that and we take that into consideration, now what are we talking about? We're talking about with IUL, time amplifies all problems. That product, that policy will lapse. It will have a problem with whole life insurance, time solves, and fixes all challenges. And whole life, the worst case scenarios, you don't have as much liquidity in the first couple of years that you, that you were hoping to have, you know? But from a long term perspective, that policy is always going to grow, the dividends are always going to pay, you know, historically speaking, they always have. I have no reason to believe that they won't, you know, which, you know, which leads me to my next point. At 24 minutes in your video, you know, he, he made, he was kind of continuing on his point, you know, I, I covered a couple of my points already, but he was continuing on his point that IUL, you know, that there's no way that a whole life can ever come close to IUL as far as the returns, you know? And, and my response to that is, you know, IUL is, is never going to even be able to come close to whole life when there's, they're reducing caps to seven and a half and eight percent right now. And let alone, they'll be lower, you know? I know some, some cap rates with my old company national life group that were sold at 15, 16 percent. Now those caps are 6.75. Think about that. They were illustrated at 8.1. Now the caps are 6.75. Yeah, it's insane. It's insane. Let me let you this Chris. At the end of that video, because you watched it, that like I haven't watched it since actually me recording, I believe he said something about he agreed that whole life would be better than most IUL trash policies. Is that am I just making this up or did he? Yeah, I don't remember him saying that. I remember him saying something about the fact that if you, if you have a lot of distrust in the cap rate stuff, then, you know, the cap rate reductions, then, you know, maybe that's a reason you would buy whole life. That was how he created that. Because this is what I, because I, he almost said it as a joke, but it's like, it's, it's kind of real. But he says like, if 95, 95 percent of IUL, that setups or companies are wrong, like you would be better off having your money in whole life. And that's, but that's my point exactly is like, and so we could talk about the 5 percent and I don't disagree with this. I don't even care though. It's like, I just did a video today on the 11 benefits of life insurance and the rate of return of life insurance was number 11. It's important, but it's like, you understand why life insurance, like why the benefits of life insurance, like the rate of return is just not a factor that I'm, that I'm going to move the needle. Hence why I'm a big fan of whole life because why would I, because IUL is essentially saying, hey, we're going to put a lot of things on the table and for the hope to have something a greater, greater return, which I think is like crazy. And that's where, I mean, one of the points that we should talk about is income. That's like the whole talking point of IUL is higher income, higher income, higher income, higher income. I think it's a problem to sell life insurance in that manner. You know the crazy, 100 percent, you know the craziest part, like so this is the whole craziest part about Rocky's argument to me, right? So he believes in IUL for tax free income, right? Yeah. Okay, unequivocally. No doubt. He believes in it. Why does he believe in it? Because of the leverage that it provides, right? Because you can borrow it 5.3 is the example he used, so whatever company he's using, 5.3 is the current loan rate. And I think they have a 12 percent cap. So his idea is there's leverage there, so it works for tax free income. Yet he'll go on the other side and start bashing Curtis Ray and MPI, which I'm against. I'm against both of them because that's the thing. I don't like IUL when sold for tax free income because it just doesn't work. Eventually, it's going to blow up on you. That's just the way it works. How can you actually, in full integrity, Rocky, come from the perspective of saying, I believe in the leverage for income over a 30 year period of time in retirement or a 25 year period, but I don't believe in leverage for MPI. I got news for you. If it works for your tax free income, it will work for MPI. It doesn't work for either. That's just the math of it. If you want to start talking math, leverage is leverage is leverage. Period. If you're starting to talk about leverage, the difference is, yeah, you can do some things with the loan provisions and go to the wash loans and use the index loans or the fixed loans versus the index loans. But they're all these moving parts in IUL. If you do the fixed loan, well then you're not going to eat into the net amount of risk and you're going to have higher insurance costs. There's all these different things that are happening behind the scenes. It's crazy to me. The other thing that he said to you that really got me going was his thing about not buying into the whole dividend paying of the life insurance company. He said he'd rather choose a stock company because they're focused more on profitability than a dividend paying whole life insurance policy company, life insurance company. I got news for you. That is the most best upwards way of thinking I could ever imagine. He's like, I don't buy into that conversation. How do you not buy into the conversation? First of all, if you don't believe that a stock company is going to keep the dividends going, that stock company is going to keep the caps up for the IUL policy holders, how are you going to trust the whole life policy company? The answer is, when you're a whole life policy company, you are the shareholder. When you're a stock company, you're not a shareholder. They have a financial obligation. It's to the shareholder, not the policy holders, period. They care about their profitability. When you have a profit, when you have an IUL, you are a profit center for that company. They will remain profitable. That company, I got news for you, will still be profitable and around and your policy can be lapsed. Even if you paid your premiums and everything went well, just look at the guaranteed columns of your policy. Not that I'm saying that you'll ever have to rely on the guaranteed columns, but never look at the current assumption. Always look at the midline assumption or somewhere between the midline and the guarantees, and that's where your reality will fall. If you're comfortable with that, then God bless you. But I guarantee you, if you look at that and then you look at a whole life, you're going to go the whole life route every single time. The bottom line, oh, go ahead. You're muted. I don't know what happened. I can't hear you. Sorry, I was pulling up. It sucks. You're going live on your channel and I'm going live on. So there's people commenting on both of our channels. They're not all together. I have friends and both of them. So, hey everybody, thank you. You're not annoying the people chatting. This is what I say. The philosophy is totally different. That's the biggest takeaway. Even with the criticisms on Curtis Ray, which we can talk about in a second, it's like. I'm going to be on for a long time. But hear me out here. One is very traditional retirement income, better widget for retirement. But it's like, I don't, that doesn't, that doesn't, that doesn't move the needle for me, Chris. But that's not even it, dude. He's a freaking attorney. He's an attorney who doesn't understand contract law, apparently. Like, that's what we're talking about. In RUL and a whole life insurance policy, they are contracts. In RUL, it says, hey, here are all the moving parts. We control your destiny. Even if you pay your premium payments, we're a stock company. Obligation is to our shareholders, not you. These are all the ways that we can move the needle to our benefit, to our shareholders benefit. And in a whole life policy, if you're with a participating mutual company, you're participating in the profits. If the company's profitable and successful, your policy is going to be profitable and successful. That's it. The other thing that he said, and I got to say this before I forget it, that really just pissed me off, is he's like, my favorite study, my favorite study, he says, is the one that shows that whole life insurance, that actual returns in whole life insurance were 2% less than the way they were illustrated. All right, ding that. This is where I get mean unlike Caleb. All right. You did that during the, if you understand how whole life dividends are, or how whole life projections and illustrations are created, there's two variables. A, there's the assumption that the company is going to pay a dividend. All right. So that's fair. The every company you and I work with has paid a dividend every single year for at least 100 plus years, fair enough. And then B, the other assumption is that the dividend paid is at the current level. So if you did a study from 1980, 1985, 1990 till today, yeah, the policy production is going to be less because dividend rates, the fixed rate market has come down. And so dividends have come down accordingly. If you don't understand what you're buying, you should never put your money into it. And yes, there's a lot of bad agents that were doing that and misrepresenting the same way that I well agents are doing now. But the bottom line is just because it underperformed, doesn't mean it performed bad. It's always not, did it perform bad compared to what? If you look at whole life over the last 30 years, it's still outperform bonds. Go talk to Tom Hall. He did a study on this, right? Like it is what it is. IUL has sold on the promise of upside potential and downside protection. Rocky, you've been doing this for how many years? Show me one policy that's been around for 10 or more years that has provided you the upside potential that is performed better than illustrated in the greatest bull run of all time. Show me one. One. Yeah. And going back, because we're talking about the same thing, going back to the philosophy of contracts even. It is ironic that an attorney who is mistrusting of a lot of things would choose IUL over whole life. That's the irony in the whole thing because. What is it? I'm calling that out. Also it just comes down to the philosophy. You and I both enter into contracts and business and other things. It's not like we don't live our lives. You're a professional poker player. It's not like we're saying all risk is bad. That's one of the things I just need to lay out. If you want to invest, IUL is probably a lot safer than other quote-unquote investments out there. We can disagree on that. No, people that have gone belly up and got no money off of investments. I know a lot of people that have got no money. I just interviewed the top IUL litigation attorney in the country. You know how many people have gotten no money out of IULs? Right. But I'm just saying that's not the point that I'm trying to make. I'm trying to make the point that it's like that's not where life insurance should be. In my opinion, it should not even be in the category of investing. That's the big difference. But that's the philosophy difference. If it's like, that's what I'm trying to say. I think it was apparent, and pretty much in every conversation with IUL versus Whole Life, it's going to come down this way. That's why if you don't seek to understand, hence Rocky's on the other side thinks Whole Life is occult because he does not understand the principles and the philosophy that we're coming from. But to be fair, we are looking at that. We may have maybe better talking points, but to be fair, they're not looking at it through the same lens. We're looking at life insurance as this is going to revolutionize retirement, which is ironic with what we can talk about Curtis Ray because there's some language that you can't even use or you need to be careful to use. I mean, if I'm any IUL marketer, I would be a little bit scared reading the Curtis Ray letter because it's like, okay, there's a lot of things that we all know. So that's hitting pause on that. It just goes back to the different philosophies. And I'm like, obviously, if you wonder where I stand, I'm where I am, kind of deal. It's not like I'm going to be going and giving pitching IUL, but it's just one of those aspects where I just find it very interesting, the different philosophies. I believe that people will be able to really see for themselves and that's the hope of this whole channel. I don't know if there's going to be anything that we can go through your other points, but I really think most of the points boil down into those things. And my goal when I have people on is to document. And then I need to do a better job following up questions and I just thought like the interview actually went well because we're opening up for future conversations. I want to be able to show him infinite banking because he clearly doesn't like infinite banking. We don't have a proper, when I say infinite banking, he thinks infinite banking, I think we're saying different things. So what we could do, we could argue back and forth with each other or I could be like, okay, let me seek to understand. And I bet you through that process, he may agree and say there might be aspects of life insurance like whole life that makes sense. And vice versa, you and I believe that there's some aspects in universal life that makes sense. So it's like it's not one of those things where it's like you're not even saying all index universal or universal life is evil. You're just like, but you're known as being the person that's going to call out. But it's not it's evil. Sure, but it's it's I well isn't bad. There are no good or bad pro like products or products, right? Like they just they're designed to do a thing, you know? And I well can be a leverageable tool for certain elements of a state planning. That's it. Like it's not going to be good. It's not going to do for you what they say it's going to do for you from a tax free retirement planning strategy. It's just not going to. And like anybody that says it will, the challenge is it's been around since 1997. The thing that says it will has no actual real life practical example of it being successful. Rocky included show me one policy that's been funded that somebody's gone through 15 to 20 years of retirement with utilizing it for income. It hasn't happened. And so and I said this when I spoke at your event, right? When did it be okay to speculate when did it become okay to speculate with life insurance? We do not want to like you life insurance companies do one thing and one thing better than any other company. Any other financial institution in the world, they get you the greatest rate of return with the least amount of risk possible. And that's what they're going to do. Now when you try to beat what they're going to and that's what they do in a participating mutual whole life company when you go into an IUL, what you're doing is you're saying, okay, company that does this thing better than any other financial institution in the world. Why don't instead of you giving me that dividend? Why don't we take that and just gamble with it? Like let's go buy some options and have fun, right? Like that's really what you're doing is speculating. And so you're taking the entire principle, the entire reason that you would utilize a life insurance company as your foundation of your financial life and you're lighting it on fire. Good for you. Yeah. Like. Yeah. Yeah. He's a guy. Yeah, I just wanted to give you a shout out, man. It's great. I think we both went on his channel. He said, honestly, if I were an IUL advocate, I don't want to rock you to be the representative I don't know, which I think I think you know, I think actually rock you would agree with that because most IUL carriers probably can't stand them. So I believe it or not, I think we're saying a lot of the same things. Chris, can I take a step back here? The other thing that I want to be like careful is we live in a world, we live in a crazy bubble where we're talking, we're like literally talking about permanent life insurance versus another semi permanent life insurance. Did you also like the fact that he didn't admit that it's been like that? I didn't like the fact that he admitted that IUL was not a permanent life insurance. Just want to point that out. I was not an accident. Okay. You better make a short out of that. That better be like an Instagram real like. Yeah. But that's not the point is we are in a space. Sometimes we forget majority of the world thinks we're all like in a life insurance called. Just to be straight up like majority of the world, the brand says the world that like literally think what we do is insane. So I just I also and I'm trying to break out. I don't want to just be a life insurance channel. I think there's there's a massive you and I have that I think are so much bigger than a product. And so we're I mean, nothing's for sure until it's for sure, but on Friday, we are going to be hosting by far the largest debate period that if we can pull this off, we'll open up doors for us to get into so many other aspects. And I could pretty much bring on almost anybody if we can get these two individuals actually show up live, which they both committed. So we'll see. But like that's not that I'm excited to go go for, but I need the credibility to be able to welcome people on and not try to trick them because that's a good way to get views on one video. Yeah, but it's I'm trying to play a different game. So that's that's the aspect. I know, but I just want to remind ourselves like in a world if you zoom out, people would put Rocky, you and me in all the same team. If you zoom out, I know in the space, it's like religion, everyone's in fighting. I know. I know. But it's like at the end of the day, we're still like a few percent percentages of people that actually think permanent life insurance has a place to put more than maybe just a term premium and majority of the world things were crazy. And so I'm all about freedom of speech and let's beat each other up. But sometimes we have to realize that in beating each other up, we're giving fuel to the people that like when Rocky says 95% of I well carriers are garbage or when you and I say like, Hey, when most whole life insurance, if it's not structured and you properly blah, blah, blah, blah. We're literally just giving this like if I look back objectively, I'm like, I actually if I was mainstream, probably would be anti-life insurance because of all the things that we know, you know what I'm saying? So it's I almost I'm taking the same talking point that Rocky's talking about because it's hard for me to get super stoked if you take the average or the typical person in the industry and do what they're typically doing. So yeah, but in all fairness, we're running the plane here. I just I'm like getting those point of views to to further like there's a lot of work for us to do. And sometimes I think we're doing ourselves a disservice in the process of doing we're doing each other a service by calling things out. We have to know that there's going to be there's going to be people that we're literally giving fuel to the same people that are attacking the life insurance space. There's no doubt. But you know at the end of the day, I don't concern myself with that. Like I I'm not in the game of trying to convince people of anything, you know, in the sense of like if somebody doesn't believe as value life insurance is the way to go then go do something else, you know. The thing that perplexes me are the people and the trolls that watch my channel and watch your channel, watch Garrett and like all the and they just troll us and like, you know, make all these comments and they watch every single minute of every video I make and they like want to tell me how wrong I am. And I'm like, how sad is your life that you disagree with me and you hate me so much it? You watch every minute of every video I make. That's just sad and pathetic. Go and get a better life. I'm sorry. Like, you know, like it just, it makes me sad. You know, getting back to what you just said though, like I agree with what you're saying, you know, but coming back to like the beginning of this and like you doing your thing and you interviewing and creating that, you know, these conversations, I think it's all a beautiful thing. What I would say to you is that you got to, you got to probe a little bit deeper, right? Like when he makes the comment, like I don't see a place where whole life ever makes sense. Really explain that to me. Like, dig deeper into that for me. Help me understand why. You know what I mean? Like, don't, like he, you, you kind of allow him and Curtis Ray, right? Like you allowed them both to like kind of drop these bombs and rather than injecting a question or a comment to get them to probe deeper and explain and get you into more of a conversation about that so you can create more clarity around the topic. You let them drop the bomb, make their point and move on before you had a chance. Yeah. I think that's that's feedback that I will take the heart and I, for sure, can learn on being faster on my feet, pushing back, but not trying to be petty. And that's an art, that's an art of something that I'm hoping to be better at because I admire people that are willing to have tough conversations and by no means might want to be the channel that just a lot like I would hope that I could call people out or have a real strong, like hard conversation with people. And so like I, I didn't intentionally do that with Rocky. I would have to go back. It's like I'm, I'm like a person at the, I would have to go look at the tape again. I'll send you my message. I'm taking your word that I said, like I didn't give a follow up. Part of it is you, you have to pick your, pick your points and that must have been a point that I didn't think I should have followed back up on and maybe I should have. So that's, that's something I'm willing to go back in. But I am, when I first got into the space, I was a dormant and I have gotten more convicted and I've gotten more confident. And I mean, I don't know if you saw the video that I did with Dan Thompson. Like, that was the most comfortable. When did you do that? Yeah, make another reaction video. But like I think you'd be proud of like in person me pushing back and like can we talk about Curtis Ray? Yeah, we can. Dan Thompson's lawyer sent me a voicemail the other day asking me to take a video down. That was pretty funny. Yeah. It's not going to happen by the way. So the Curtis Ray, you, so you watched the Rocky video at least twice that I've done. Did you watch the video that I read the letter that has a turni sent? I didn't. And did you watch the video that Rocky and I did on Curtis Ray? I did not. I watched your video just interviewing Rocky. I watched your video interviewing Curtis after the letter. Okay. Okay. So here's, and again, I would love to hear people's thoughts in the chat that have watched all three videos. We currently have 27 people watching live. I think on yours, you have, you have 16. So we have a total of like 40 people walking away. Okay. So here's the thing with, with, um, here's thing with Curtis Ray. I did a video, first video literally reading the letter and like straight up calling him out. Okay. That was very uncomfortable for me to do. But I knew what I was the right place. I knew it was the right thing to do for the situation that we're in. It's like I could have just forgotten about the video or letter. I don't think they would have done anything. I could have taken the video down and not said anything. But I was like, you know what? This is an opportunity for me to quote unquote play the martyr. And so if they're going to play this game, it's the video is not that meaningful to me. It's actually sucks. I did it like two years ago. So I'm just going to like expose and then redo the video, no way that there's some other things that, so that's what I did. So if you watch that, you may think I'm soft. I literally like read verbatim. And if you read the comment, he gets crushed in the comments. So that went on. And then I brought on Rocky, which we just went through the, the season to assist. Right. And you know, whether you love Rocky or you hate him, he doesn't mix his words. Okay. So two things hammer. And then so Curtis reaches out and he said Caleb and he reaches out as like, Hey, someone on my team saw a video and I was like, okay, you probably watched the video. But I didn't I was like, let's, we'll just play a game. And he's like, Hey, I would like to come on because I did invite him to come on. I said, Curtis, like, and if you, if you don't want to hide behind a letter and you actually want to have a conversation with, would love to have it. And, um, and to his credit, he did reach out. But and he did say like, I don't want this to be a got you interview. Yeah. And so I, I, I agreed to have it in good faith. Now part of the thing that I agreed is that I wasn't going to edit. I wasn't going to edit things. And in hindsight, I wish there's some things that could have chopped out because it was a long video. And like, especially what he said in the end, I, I think he's got to be really careful. But the way that he talks, I can see people getting excited about your IUL and alternative investing and even like, I asked one question, but I didn't really follow up of like, it makes no sense like this infinite loop. If it was so amazing, why don't you just keep on doing it? You know, why do you never go to do it? You know, that's what I didn't say that, but he gave an answer. And I didn't like, I was just like, it's already an hour and so man. I just like, let's just stop talking. So like, so you watch that. And yeah, for sure, you can look at elements, but you have to see that in a, in a trilogy of like three videos and, and we did call back to like, that's why he's coming on. And so I know I wasn't perfect there, but I, I did have like, ask him certain things. And so I, I wasn't like, I wasn't like after the video with Curtis. I wasn't like, this was the best video of all time. But I, I covered everything I wanted to cover. It was twice as long that I wanted it to be. But I was like, I can't edit it in good faith. And so we're just going to, we're just going to post it. So I don't know what the comments of people, they're back in the up or not, but those are my two cents. Yeah, I would just say this like the challenge for me. And this is the challenge for me. And this is the difference between like I understand that moving parts and of I well and all this like way better than all of us, anybody, you know what I mean? And that's why I've written my new book. I just got it. I'll, by the way, my new book, I well exposed is going to be coming out around Christmas time. So just be ready. That's going to be fun. Great Christmas. It's going to be a great Christmas. Christmas house. I'm going to dream and die you well exposed. So yeah, exactly. So if you want to get your favorite I well agent of Christmas gift, go ahead. But the, um, like the challenge for me is knowing what I know about these things. I get fired up about it. You know what I mean? Because what I know to be true is you take a rocky, you take a Curtis Ray, you take a, uh, David McKnight, you take a dog, Andrew, you take any of these people that, that, that have sold I well long enough. And you can't, there's one of two things that are happening. Either they're not good advisors, not good agents, and they're not doing annual reviews. And they're not checking the results and they're not looking at the import illustrations. They're not serving their clients properly. Or they're seeing the fact that their policies for the overwhelming majority of their clients are underperforming what they sold them. So is one of two things either one is horrible, right? And so the fact is I know that I know this to be true. And nobody's going to convince me of it because I got too much data that proves my point. And so when you get a guy like Curtis Ray on who goes and talks and he's, believe me, I watch the video. I'm like, God, this guy is smooth as butter. It's like he knows what he's doing. He's classic. He knows how to play the game. He's a great sales guy. You don't build the marketing channel and the following that you have like him without being that way. And he says all the right things, but there's like zero percent of me that believes he doesn't know the fact that what he's doing is screwing people over. Like that's my opinion. That's my opinion. I actually think he believes in what he's doing. That doesn't make it right. So, okay. So let's go here. No, okay. Believing, really believing that he's doing right by humanity. I think that's actually more dangerous than someone that know because you know, deep down, like you will go through a wall because you believe that you're going to set someone free. Whereas that's, that's, we can agree to disagree. But I, I'm not giving him a pass. I actually think you're more at guilty in some aspects, but I don't believe that he believes that he's screwing people. He's, I think he's too talented to, to, why would he do that? You know what I'm saying? Like, why would you and good conscience do something? Do you know it's not right and be so bold about it? You know that's not going to age well. I, that's, you're, I can't hear you. Maybe it's on my end. Yeah, I don't know if people can still hear me. Maybe someone in the comments, if you can still hear me. Let me know. I know, are you? Okay. I think, I think Chris's battery is going out. So I'm just going to continue to talk. Obviously, really, really appreciate all the people that are staying on late at night to watch us live. Testing. All right. We're back. Yeah, we can hear you. Yeah, we can hear you. Okay. Sorry. My mind. My problem is that I'm humbled by the way that that people are are here making this. You guys have to make this is so, so cool that so many people are here walking us. So humbled. Yeah. Well, you're such funny. You know, like all I was saying to, yeah, no, dude, it's awesome. I love this stuff. I love talking about this. I, I think, you know, it just, just to finish that point, go on and talk about whatever. But like I just look at it and the reason people get people wonder why I get so fired up, you know, and they think I'm like just like this anger guy, like looking to attack Curtis and like whatever. And you can speak, maybe defend me a little bit on that because you know me better than almost anybody in the industry. And, but what I'll say is this is like, I get fired up because in my heart of hearts, I believe one of two things is happening. Curtis either as an example, Curtis, Doug, like all these guys, I put them all in the same group at the end of the day. They all do it in their own way, but they either know what they're doing. And they're, they're, they're just taking the cash grab or they're not paying attention to the actual results of their clients, which is a breach of like responsibility. And, and neither one is acceptable. And, and, and, and the, the, not paying attention just is incompetence. And, and how do you move forward in complete incompetence yet act like you know everything about everything? Right? And, and so, and, and that's why this one of the reasons like I did not create. I did not create the IUL challenge just to be like, huh, nobody could win this. I fully expect that some point in time somebody's going to win the IUL challenge just to put that out there. It is not an impossible thing like Caleb that my IUL challenge where I'm going to pay somebody 10 grand if they win. Was designed to create a conversation about the fact that it's not that IUL can't work in a vacuum. It's that, yeah, if it's going to not work 95% of the time, what are we actually doing? You know what I mean? Like, and it's easy for somebody that sold a thousand policies to cherry pick two and three policies. Right? That, that have worked maybe 10 policies, one to five percent of the policies they've ever sold that have worked and put them out there and market them. And that's one of the dangers of social media, right? Like, is being able to do that. But when I know, like, and I've seen the results, you know, and people send this stuff to me all the time. And I've shared a lot of videos on how this all works and Rocky even confirmed with the reduction in cap rates of whether they do that. This is one of the reasons that these things happen and why I'm right. Like, this is this is the thing. And so when I know this to be true, yeah, like, I'm a bit of a crazy guy when I believe something to be true, I'll run through a freaking wall. Like, and, and I'll fight that fight until, you know, until I'm dead. Ultimately, is what it comes down to, you know? But I'm doing it because I want to help people and serve people not because I want to tear Curtis down. It's not about Curtis or Rocky or any of it. People that I'm trying to help. I, we're saying the same thing. You're not what I'm almost saying is you're not trying to just troll people to troll people. You're, you're, you believe in what you believe in. And knowing what you know, it would be irresponsible for you to not say things. If you just wanted to not rock the boat. And all I'm saying is where we actually have more things in common than maybe someone outside, like someone outside could be like Caleb soft. Chris is sticking to his guns. Great. I'm looking at your, your opinion. Give us five years. And you would be shocked on how many things I think are going to be able to, how many collaborations are going to be able to happen. And how many conversations are going to be able to happen? I'm still hoping to get you and your best friend Dave McKnight together and have a conversation. I, I think I got an in one in the space. I'm the one that can pull that off. I did a live video yesterday. I did a live video yesterday and he actually commented on it because I, I did a list. Did you see this live video I did yesterday? I did not know. So I went to chat GPT and I asked chat GPT the top 10 I you all, I you all channels to, to follow on YouTube. If you wanted to actually learn about how I well works. And ironically, I was ranked number one and I did this totally objectively. No, no, like, no, Bating. I even shared the prompt that I use just to show I didn't like do anything. I came up number one and you came up number two. And the reason you came up number two is because I've been on your channel so many times. It even said that in there. It was great because we've collaborated because I've done so much like video education on, you know, for I. Well, but it's because, you know, we actually do a deep dive conversation about I. Well, and I asked, I'm like, it's interesting. David McKnight was ranked number five, right? And so what did he say? What did he comment on your video? So he's just like for the right because when I mentioned his, his channel at number five, I read what chat GPT said because I asked chat GPT to give me the explanation of why the rank where they are. And so I read that and I said, you know, it's like, I don't really agree with David. And, you know, we've had, you know, a little beef and, you know, so he did this video on me. So he did this comment where he's like, well, to be fair, you know, I did one negative video on you in my last video is actually quite complimentary. And I've got another video coming out that's kind of in the same vein. And I'm like, that's great. David, I, you know, it's, and I respond, I'm like, that's great. I like, I'd still love to have a live conversation with you. We're basically neighbors. You live in Puerto Rico. I live in the Dominican. I could take a ferry to your house now. Like, let's go. Yeah. You know, like, I'll do it. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Joel, I'm getting some notifications that on Instagram. No one can see us. But I don't know how, uh, how relevant that is right now. But it's, it's both of our faces are chopped off. So that's, um, anyways, yeah, I got to love, I got to love the IG. Um, so how do we want to wrap this up? I, I would ask everyone that's watching stay tuned for Friday's live stream. If we can pull this off, it's going to be the biggest video in better world history. That's it. And I think we're pretty enclosed to making it happen. Um, Chris, appreciate you. What else? I mean, what else? You know, I knew this is how this combination is going to go. And so it's like, I love that you were willing to do it live so that people could literally see like we're not, if we had zero microphones and cameras, we would be saying the same thing. Totally. Yeah. That's what I love about you. Is there so many people that are like, okay, am I live? All right. I'm not going to talk this certain way. I'm going to stick on my script and that's not you. And so I love that. And that's where I want to go. Like, do I have some filter when I'm live? Maybe a little bit. But I believe a true authentic free person is themselves, regardless of cameras on and off. That's one thing I admire about you. And that's something that I'm continuing to grow in. And I think, I think that there's a lot of opportunity. There's a lot of opportunity both paths that we're going. And I believe that both, both of us are going to be necessary for some, some things that happen. Like, I actually think you need to continue to double down what you're doing. And I like, I'm not looking at you and saying, you should change your style. Like, no, we need, there needs to be people like you. And you actually are going to have benefits because of that. But then you also are going to get painted a certain way, because people are going to see the way to see you, the way they're going to see you. People are going to see me the same way. They're going to see me, the way that they're going to see me. And it's going to open up conversations, but it's also going to shut down conversations. And that's the cost of putting your face out there. Yeah, and that is the hardest part for me is when I get painted, because I am actually a pretty easygoing sensitive guy. I know a lot of people have a hard time believing that, but I, you know, it's hard for me. You take it into the care, but you're not like you're... No, no, no, I care. Like, I'm a very heartfelt care, and I'm not sensitive. I mean, like, I got thick skin, like whatever. But it does get to you event. At some point in time, when everybody's just like trolling you and ripping you, and like, because the reality is I know, like, I've got hundreds of thousands of IUL agents, and I'm like one guy, like the one guy that's doing the thing that I'm doing. And I realize the benefit in that, but it's not about the benefit. It's about like just doing what I feel like I'm called to do. And, you know, the fact that there's... Like, the fact that we've launched an IMO and done all these different things, and we have a lot of agents joining the team and all this stuff. None of that was really intentional. That was all kind of like... Because of the content that I was doing, people kept coming to me, but being like, oh my gosh, you're right. Like, I can't believe this. What do I do? Can you help me? And I was like, no, I can't help you. I got nowhere to help you. You know, like... And so eventually, I got tired of doing that. So I said, all right, we're going to just create an IMO, so we can create a landing place, you know, to help and go from there. And the only other thing I would say before I forget is like, I had a lot of people reach out to me about this. Like, I had people commenting on my videos telling me like, oh my gosh, you got a debate Caleb, because now he believes in IOL. I had people texting me and messaging me being like, dude, you got to talk to Caleb. I know you guys are like family. Like, he's getting soft. Like, you got to set him straight. And my feedback to people is just like, listen. Like, and I said it today, and Caleb just said, I'm going to speak my mind no matter what. And I'll give my coaching, I'll give my feedback, I'll give whatever. Caleb's a grown man. He knows what he's doing. You're one of the smartest 20-something-year-olds I've ever met in my life. You know, like, nothing Caleb does is without specific intent. We're all human. We all are just learning as we go. Myself included him, you, everybody. And so, you know, let's not be so critical of each other when we're trying to do good things like at the end of the day. And I do know that you're doing this with a very long-term vision in everything. And that the thing I love about you, probably more than anything, is you're like your growth mindset and you're always looking to improve and expand. Right. Just it's all about creating value. You know, that whole value creation cycle is what it's all about. And so, you know, it's amazing. And so, you know, anybody that thinks Caleb has been soft, you know, and I know I'm kind of like, I've stoked a little bit of that because I called himself, because let's face it, you were being soft. But like, that just what I tell my kids, just because you were mean in that moment doesn't make you a mean person, right? Like I say to my kids all the time, it's like, you're not a mean person because he did something mean. Like, you're not a soft person because he did something soft. You know, like, it's a learning opportunity that you're going to grow from it and go from there. Chris, if you could have a conversation with any person, and if I could set that up, who would it be? Ha! Any person? Any person. Any, well, person. Around this object. Around this object, what? Around how you are. One person, Doug Andrew. Doug Andrew. So, over David McKnight. Yeah, Doug Andrew will never do it though because he's done. David McKnight, I would love to have a conversation with. And honestly, at this point, I think my conversation with David McKnight would be very cordial. We would agree to disagree on some of the use cases of IUL. And there were some points that I'd love to push back at him, not to be aggressive or not to fight with him, but to really just hear his answer. And to see how well he really understands it. Well, we'll get this clip over to him and we'll see if there's any interest. I would be an honor to be a part of that. And then we will see if we can get Doug. I guess I gotta be careful what I say in the live stream. I have some connections to Doug and we'll see if they can. He's not gonna do it. He's not gonna do it. There's too much, our channel's too big. You do two searches. He's just not going to. He's too exposed. He's got too much to lose. I'm doing a whole series with litigation attorney. I'm actually doing some work to help him evaluate IUL policies that he's in lawsuits about. We're doing some things. He was telling me. And he said it publicly on my last video with him. He's successfully sued and beat Doug Andrew in over 100 policies. Yeah, that's you. You know, can I, can I, can we go a little bit longer on this live stream? I'm good. Yeah, I'm good, man. I'm here. So I watched the video that you did with the attorney. Yeah. And I don't think the guy likes life insurance at all. He does. He doesn't sound like that. No, he didn't. He didn't sound like that. And it sounded like, and I just wanted to say this because I know you're like piling on me. Be careful. I know to your credit, you did push back on a couple things. But just be careful because like, you know, it sounds like it was definitely. I was like dang like, you know, making some points about licenses and making points about commissions and making points on like all talking points to why like why people are getting ripped off on life insurance. And, you know, I think what you guys doing are doing are great, but I was just a little bit surprised on it seemed like he was a hater of insurance. No, he's so he's, he's a, listen, he's an attorney. So I think attorneys are wired a certain way to be kind of a hater. Like so before he became an I.E.L. litigation attorney and had that become like a forefront of his business. And he still does both. And he's as securities litigation attorney. So he goes after investment people, Ponzi schemes. I.E.L. is just one of the more recent things that he's gone after. You know, and it's been since 2018 that he's been doing it. And it's just grown into this beast of a machine. And he's just built a passion about it for many of the similar reasons that I have. And that's why he and I connected so much on it. It's not that he's against life insurance. He's against the way that life insurance is sold a lot of the times. Him being an attorney, you know, he and I, yeah, you're right. That's going to be a line that I'm going to have to tow carefully because, you know, I'm I I push back at him a little bit. You know, it just from the perspective when he started saying some of those things I was like, listen, it's just a it's a values thing, right? Like it's a, you know, like I and but he wasn't wrong either. You know, like no. For you guys, we're all we're all saying the same things. And that's where their their shade is. They're shades of gray there. It's just a lot of his talking points or people that want to about like the whole and this is maybe a question. Do you believe I. Well should have a securities license 100% like I think if I well it plays in existence, I think it should have a securities license. Absolutely. Yeah. If for no other reason, it puts it in the same classes V. Well, which, you know, whatever. I'm cool with that. That's another talking point that we should do. I think the problem is it's a slippery slope when you start getting regulated regulations. Then you know what I'm saying, but I I think the reason why you have regulations is to protect people. And I think you out of all people have seen that people got and taken advantage of this. Totally. Well, I think it's a I don't want my initial reaction. It's the same goes. There's freedom speech. I hate your speech. Just figure out a way to regulate your speech because your speech is hurtful. But we don't realize it's really your speech. It bundles up. It now we can use that to, you know, after our people. So it's just one of those things where I've like a love hate relationship with regulation. When I say love, I don't really have much of a love for regular. I don't have a love for either. I'm like deregulation to the tea, but I think from a licensing perspective, that's different than regulating, right? Like it's, you know, there's, yeah. Like we have licenses because there's a certain level of expertise that should be required. You know, like the reason a life insurance license is easy to get is because technically speaking, it shouldn't have that much of a negative consequence if you screw it up, right? Or that's a fair, that's a fair thing to talk about. I think it's a, you know, I look at it or make an argument for why do you need to be licensed in general to do certain things? And that's a form of regulation. Like it's licensed. Like somebody got to get, yeah, why does somebody got to get licensed to cut my hair, right? Like if they, if they know how to cut hair, they should just be able to cut my hair. Okay, like maybe there's some health reasons or whatever. I could tell you, I think the barber cutting my hair in the Dominican probably doesn't have a license. He does a great job. He does better than anybody have ever run in the United States. You know, like, but yeah, but I'll, but I'll say this is like that about the regulation about IUL specifically about, you know, getting licensed and having, you know, needing to be a registered rep to sell it. VULs are required because of the fact that, you know, you're, you're doing mutual funds inside of the, the UL chassis, that you need to have a securities license. Traditionally, UL was a fixed product, so you didn't need it. IUL is options. They're using options to do it. So if you need to understand options or if you should at least understand options before buying an IUL, you should understand it. And if you need a license to sell options, as securities license to sell options, what you do, well, then you should need a license to sell an IUL because they're using options inside of the indexing strategy to do it. So it's not as simple as everybody puts it out. That's one of the biggest problems with IULs. It's sold as a very simplistic product when, in fact, like, Robert, the litigation attorney was like, looking at this, he goes, I've done lawsuits on derivatives and like all these crazy things. And he goes, IUL is infinitely more complicated than anything I've ever litigated over. Right? And so if you've got this like securities litigation attorney that is pivoted to the IUL space and is saying, IUL is more complicated than derivatives, WTF. Yeah, but okay, I'm going to read some of the comments. So the financial advocacy podcast that you guys should all follow, he said that the options strategies are in the general account, not the policy itself. It's a big difference. Yeah, of course. I think that is there, but I do agree that people should understand things. I, Julian said having a license for IUL would be a major blow to MLM companies. Not a bad thing. Totally. Not a bad thing. Yeah, that would not happen. That's what American does just fine. Yeah. And then, you know, Leo says that there's plenty of cooks with Frenera licenses. I can say that for a fact, Jeffrey, we appreciate you commenting. He's got him, you know, he loves the content that David, David McNight talks about in the guru, guru, Gatbook. I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of good stuff. So I just want to, again, want to thank you all. I'm definitely going to go live more because I think there's something really cool. We should do something more regularly. You and I. I was told, I was told on Instagram is a total disaster. I've gotten plenty of text, hey, and FYI formatting on life. So hey, it is what it is. That's part of, part of swinging is sometimes you strike out, but on YouTube, it seems to work well. So Chris, I love you, man. I appreciate the work that you're doing. And I know that this won't be the last, last video we do. And my hope is to start line people up and having like the Pierce Morgan style conversations. Let's go. Let's do it. So keep throwing the punches, okay? All right. Don't get soft. Don't get soft on me. I don't think I have that in me. All right. Let's see. All right, Joel. All right. All right. My team delivered my dinner. Well, we're uh, on hearing crickets. Are you hearing crickets? Yeah. You can hear the crickets in the background? Yep. Oh, that's louder than I thought it would be. Okay. Um, all that you know, I don't know, man. Every time I've ever tried to go live on Instagram, using one of these programs like Restream, it's always jacked up.